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Misdirection, the magician's tool
"An upon what do you base that leap of logic?"

What leap of logic? Your proposition:

"When you start to presume that government can better
guide an economy..."

But don't answer "than what". Who if not government? I
presume you think business is responsible for guiding the
economy? What business has at its heart the good of the
economy? That is the role of government!

I stated:

"The quality of Microsoft's media player is not the issue"

You said:

"No, that IS the issue."

Please tell me where in the EU's case it says that its actions
are as a result of the poor quality of media player. Guess
what? It doesn't. The case is about Microsoft trying to
monopolise streaming media. Offering a bundled media
player is one component of their strategy.

You continue:

" Microsoft can only convince people to use its media
playing format if they can convince people to use its
player"

Yes, quite right. And by putting Windows Media Player on
every desktop, and the server on every server, then offering
inducements to content publishers to stream only in WMF
(e.g. baseball league) then users are forced into using WMP.
Some choice.

You also totally discount Microsoft's market power driven by
Windows. You're in denial. You are in disgreement with
several court decisions in both the US and Europe. Courts
created by democratically elected governments, composed of
a variety of individuals of various cultural, political and
ethnic backgrounds. Courts that have come to the same
conclusion several times over the last 10 years.

"In essence, dominance is a NATURAL outgrowth of
markets that lack inherent standards."

Just because it happens does not make it right. A natural
outcome of anarchy is survival of the fittest. So is anarchy
OK? Rather hollow argument John. Besides, your "inherent
standards" argument is spurious. Microsoft is able to
maintain its dominance with Office partly because of its
closed, proprietary "standards" for file formats, protocols
and APIs. It is now using the massive profits from Office and
Windows to provide "free" components for streaming media
so that effective competition is removed.

Microsoft's dominance may have been inevitable (it totally
destroys your "consumer choice" angle by the way) but that
does not excuse their abuse of that monopoly.

" Besides, I have spoken against the breakup of AT&T.
They didn't break up Korea Telecom or NTT (Japan's former
state monopoly)."

Who are "they"? The governments of Japan and Korea?
Presumably they decided that government monopolies were
good. There are many instances of government monopolies
delivering excellent outcomes because their main aim is to
benefit the community. The main aim of a business
monopoly is to enrich the owners and managers of the
company.

Besides, it is classic misdirection yet again. Microsoft's
problems are not because it is a monopoly, but
because it is abusing its monopoly power.
Posted by: Fred Fredrickson   Posted on: 03/31/04 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use
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Anti-trust needed...  Tim Patterson | 03/30/04
Amen to that! (nt)  el1jones | 03/30/04
Numbers speak for themselves  Christopher McLendon | 03/30/04
Misleading...  Tim Patterson | 03/30/04
Misleading  tomaras@... | 03/30/04
this is way to confusing  V Sanders | 03/31/04
Statistics, not features, are all that matters  mtl | 03/31/04
I agree, but  rapson | 03/31/04
Yes they would.  STDog | 03/31/04
What numbers?  zd-spam | 03/30/04
Anti-trust needed...  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
Oh Geez ... Here we go ...  coffeenite | 03/30/04
Oh Geez ... Here we go ...  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
Reverse MS logic...  MacCanuck | 03/30/04
Reverse MS logic..  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
Taking over  MacCanuck | 03/30/04
Taking over  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
Ignore SeoSamh. He is like Bit Byte.  systemcleaner | 03/30/04
Ignore SeoSamh. He is like Bit Byte  seosamh_z | 03/31/04
Welcome to the club  rapson | 03/31/04
You need humans  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
you ignore leverage john  hipparchus | 03/30/04
John, you're good at obfuscating the situation...  MacCanuck | 03/30/04
stop making excuses for stupid people!  stephen732@... | 03/30/04
stop making excuses for stupid people!  tomaras@... | 03/30/04
really pitiful argument  zd-spam | 03/30/04
Get it? Too hard for you to understand?  systemcleaner | 03/30/04
Wow John, your true colour are showing  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
My favorite color is "red"  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Misdirection, the magician's tool  Fred Fredrickson | 03/31/04
No magic to it  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Are people arguing about the same thing here?  Zogg | 03/31/04
That's what they do  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 04/01/04
Not adding up...  Zogg | 04/01/04
Come on John  bgoss@... | 03/30/04
I can't believe you said this...  Rodney Davis | 03/30/04
Functional replacements  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
I appreciate your point, but...  Rodney Davis | 03/31/04
But that's just it  rapson | 03/31/04
Striving to Monopoly is the NORM....  quietLee | 03/31/04
I'm not buying it.  el1jones | 03/30/04
I'm not buying it.  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
BTW, MSN is not a monopoly. -- HUH?  coffeenite | 03/30/04
BTW, MSN is not a monopoly. -- HUH?  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
"Ever heard of AOL? Proprietary software required." HUH?  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
What?  coffeenite | 03/30/04
You don't NEED it  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
"Ever heard of AOL? Proprietary software required." HUH?  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
I love analogies  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Media PLayer is just a very good media player  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
re : Media PLayer is just a very good media player  V Sanders | 03/31/04
re: I love analogies too  stephen732@... | 03/30/04
you dont  JoeMama_z | 03/30/04
Because...  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Piss off John....  TrollSlayer | 03/31/04
Ah! The bottom line...  Zogg | 03/31/04
Of course you do  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
That's because they are effective  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
At misdirection  Fred Fredrickson | 03/31/04
pro M$??  benopdezolder | 04/06/04
Maybe Legislation is not the way to go  DevilsAdvocado | 03/30/04
re: Maybe Legislation is not the way to go  stephen732@... | 03/30/04
IBM & Anti-trust  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
The Lone Ranger  DevilsAdvocado | 04/01/04
Monty Pynthonesque... but probably spot on. (nt)  Fred Fredrickson | 04/03/04
Yeah, umm...  Bob/Paul | 03/30/04
Convince your family to run Linux  cchenoweth | 03/30/04
GE analogy flawed  voska | 03/30/04
GE analogy flawed  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
I agree with you  voska | 03/30/04
Not so flawed as your rejoinder  Mack DaNife | 03/30/04
Not so flawed as your rejoinder  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
That dodge engine  voska | 03/30/04
That dodge engine  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
Are you serious....  DarbyOhara | 03/30/04
Free speach  Ardian Daka | 03/30/04
She has rights too  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
That's all well and good  John Dulles | 03/30/04
you are adding points...  ryusen | 03/30/04
Not Quite  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
I'm saying there are reasons why the market has coalesced around Microsoft  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
Lots of people conclude the wrong thing  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Not Quite  dshans | 03/31/04
About time...  Patrick Jones | 03/30/04
Deferral  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Oh.  Patrick Jones | 03/31/04
No, Microsoft's business practices a BIG mistake.  DonnieBoy | 03/30/04
Governments "interfere" with design all the time - for the better  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
Microsoft security  voska | 03/30/04
Governments "interfere" with design all the time - for the better  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
No difference  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
No difference  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
re: just one code.  ryusen | 03/30/04
re: just one code.  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
what force?  ryusen | 03/30/04
what force?  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
yep  ryusen | 03/30/04
This isn't security regulations  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Misrepresentation?  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
Connecting the dots  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
wrong analogy  NemesisNL | 03/31/04
Radio airtime has ALWAYS been open  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Then why  NemesisNL | 03/31/04
This isn't security regulations  dshans | 03/31/04
guess  richhayes | 03/30/04
Talk about what you know about...  quietLee | 03/31/04
I can't agree with you less, John.  Mack DaNife | 03/30/04
All good reason for using Linux  voska | 03/30/04
Re: All good reason for using Linux  Mack DaNife | 03/30/04
exactly  V Sanders | 03/31/04
I can't agree with you less, John.  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
re:  ryusen | 03/30/04
re:  seosamh_z | 03/30/04
re:  ryusen | 03/30/04
re:  seosamh_z | 03/31/04
maybe...  ryusen | 03/31/04
Some responses  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Media Player is more API than user application  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
Small correction...  Fred Fredrickson | 03/31/04
power of the  NemesisNL | 03/31/04
Drugs obviously better in Ireland...  scotus | 03/30/04
API  Ardian Daka | 03/30/04
You will note that my response...  scotus | 03/30/04
Anti-trust outdated - your very arguments say otherwise.  mathandmetal | 03/30/04
Uh, Mr. Carroll: MS is a *lawbreaker*. They require oversight.  ordaj@... | 03/30/04
You have it backwards  Mark Gist | 03/30/04
Overflow  pj-xmesh | 03/30/04
Knew it was JC from the title alone ... big bias here  oldskool | 03/30/04
Agree and disagree John.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
They have to try to maintain their market capitization  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
I really think it's more about egos.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
fully agree about the egos (nt)  ryusen | 03/30/04
I think 2 separate MSs would lose market share & value  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
Maybe, but does it matter?  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Maybe, but does it matter?  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
Re: Maybe, but does it matter?  none none | 03/30/04
computting is not a zero-sum-game  oldskool | 03/30/04
Never thought bitty would come around ...  oldskool | 03/30/04
Yes, no and maybe...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Standardisation would improve MS productivity  oldskool | 03/30/04
why can't....  ryusen | 03/30/04
POerhaps if you were open to other opinions...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
who's not reading who's posts well?  ryusen | 03/30/04
I see...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
The core issues  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
See no evil?  Robert Crocker | 03/30/04
You've missed something critical  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
No one is missing anything...  scotus | 03/31/04
REAL?!? SUBSTANTIVE?!?  Robert Crocker | 03/31/04
John, that's because the whole  ordaj@... | 03/30/04
Before the antitrust trial  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
John, that's the point...  ordaj@... | 03/30/04
Counter points to consider John  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Interesting points  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Ehm not quite  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
Your not listening John.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Was it the first building you designed?  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
No, it was the first time I had this inspector.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Again, good point  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Let me clarify if I can.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/31/04
Middle ground: Stop breaking the law and...  scotus | 03/31/04
Stop the spin ... focus on the core issue  oldskool | 03/30/04
Are you serious?  Mack DaNife | 04/01/04
You negledted to mention the antipathy of the big IT outfits  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
core issues  Mack DaNife | 04/01/04
removing media player...  ryusen | 03/30/04
locked out  richhayes | 03/30/04
psychologically...  ryusen | 03/30/04
psychologically  richhayes | 03/30/04
really?  ryusen | 03/31/04
you are wrong  V Sanders | 03/31/04
You are wrong too.  Fred Fredrickson | 03/31/04
wow... you should get a job doing this...  ryusen | 03/31/04
Indeed, you're very predictable  avdp | 03/30/04
Predictability  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Wrong  j.m.galvin | 03/30/04
That IS a ruling  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Wrong again  j.m.galvin | 03/31/04
every reason to expect  avdp | 03/30/04
Stallman and Carroll are predictable...  scotus | 03/30/04
Apple's and Oranges  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
This I disagree with  Michael Kelly | 03/30/04
The essence of the problem  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Text editing vs. media playing  Michael Kelly | 03/30/04
why it's wrong...  ryusen | 03/30/04
Re: why it's wrong...  none none | 03/30/04
Of possible interest  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
WRONG!  Robert Crocker | 03/30/04
COWABUNGA!  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Re: Integrating GOOD technology  George Jay | 03/30/04
good point ... MS has kill VC market for SW companies  oldskool | 03/30/04
VC  A.Sinic | 03/31/04
try to get money ... anti-MS strategy a top concern  oldskool | 03/31/04
No one said it was easy  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
So what you're saying is ...  George Jay | 04/01/04
oh, puh-leeeze!  Robert Crocker | 03/31/04
COWABUNGA......  dshans | 03/31/04
Oh Carroll you got me eatin' my heart away...  BanjoPaterson | 03/30/04
It's NOT about MEdia Player!  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Correct  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
But the fact is...  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
Okay  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Sale on red herrings!!!  Robert Crocker | 03/31/04
Re: There should be limits on what governments are allowed  George Jay | 03/31/04
Re: The notion that consumers no longer have control  George Jay | 03/30/04
If I remember correctly...  Michael Kelly | 03/30/04
the REAL problem is MS introduces new formats  oldskool | 03/30/04
So was the OJ verdict  Harvey Birdman | 03/30/04
Thank GOD the EU has more brains than most folks...  realitycheck101 | 03/30/04
I wish you could articulate a thought without the foolishness.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 03/30/04
WHAT technology?  Yagotta B. Kidding | 03/30/04
How much would this slow development?  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
Inclusion as API, not UI  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/30/04
Hmmm  NemesisNL | 03/30/04
re:  ryusen | 03/30/04
US COA also said MS needed to allow removal by user  oldskool | 03/30/04
The most flawed logic yet  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
What a surprise  zd-spam | 03/30/04
That's because ...  George Jay | 03/30/04
"Integration" is really bundling by another name  George Jay | 03/30/04
News Commentary EC's Microsoft ruling--a big mistake Penalizing the formerly legal - farcical logic  Fred Fredrickson | 03/30/04
What'd you do to the title?  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 03/31/04
Ah, my secret...  Fred Fredrickson | 03/31/04
John you are boring and too predictable and you are wrong.  systemcleaner | 03/30/04
If only MS would just drop the pretence ...  jellyclock | 03/31/04
We need the standards that Microsoft Provides  MSG_z | 03/31/04
Why must it be MS-created...  MacCanuck | 03/31/04
Response  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 04/01/04
Are you suggesting everyone fold up shop  MacCanuck | 04/01/04
EC's ruling  joseph.like@... | 03/31/04
"design decisions for Windows get taken away from programmers "  rfuller@... | 03/31/04
Capitalism  Mydrrin | 03/31/04
Do I smell an alternative agenda?  Beejaybee | 03/31/04
Do I smell a hidden agenda?  Beejaybee | 03/31/04
EU cash raid on MS  wbathurs | 03/31/04
Perhaps the same could be said of the case in Japan?  B.O.F.H. | 04/01/04
Where are those talented critics?  AdeOghert | 03/31/04
EC doesn't have vested interest in keeping MS powerful  YuridaMan | 03/31/04
Economics  bjbrock | 03/31/04
John professes to have a degree in economics ...  George Jay | 03/31/04
Because John doesn't have a degree in Computer Science  George Jay | 03/31/04
Degrees  John L. Ries | 04/03/04
It's a common complaint  John Carroll ZDNet Moderator | 04/01/04
Re: It's a common complaint  George Jay | 04/01/04
Amazing as it may seem...  scotus | 04/01/04
BTW, the assumptions required for...  scotus | 04/01/04
more then a big mistake  V Sanders | 03/31/04
Some thoughts  John L. Ries | 04/03/04
Calling John's bluff  Robert Crocker | 04/03/04
Bush's Blunder in Iraq might explain ...  mikemikef | 04/05/04

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