EU steps into digital rights debate

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Two separate issues here

Okay, let's separate the two issues here, 1) the question of showing ID relating to search and seizure, and 2) the existence of secret laws that we're not allowed to know about until we break them.

I think that we can both agree that #2 is a bad thing. If nothing else, I think this court case is worth trying, just to expose this concept to the general public, and to try to get some real definitions of what the law actually says. Forget the 4th amendment questions, I want to know if there are secret laws I could be violating. So you can call him a "bozo" if you'd like, but he's doing both of us a service.

---the word "unreasonable" just leaps out at me. Do you believe that having to show a simple form of ID, especially for some form of protection (perceived or real) to the person asking, is unreasonable?---

That's the question here, along with the question of "probable cause". If I'm traveling on a secret mission for my company, worried that industrial spies might find out what I'm doing, I wanna remain anonymous. If I'm cheating on my spouse, I wanna remain anonymous. If I'm being hunted by a hitman, if I'm a paranoid nutjob, if I'm a celebrity checking into rehab, I want to remain anonymous. All of these are scenarios where having to show a clerk whose qualifications you don't know seems unreasonable to me.

This is something that should be ruled on in court, so I'm glad he's brought the case. You may well be right, but there's no legal precedent here. Again, I want to obey the law, but until I know what that law is, I can't be a good citizen. Court cases like this set precedent so we all know what we are dealing with.

---Now, I take it that you (or the rich loon) think that this should extend to "papers" that one would carry to be able , in a manner, to prove their identity---

Again, the Constitution is open to interpretation. Papers could certainly apply here, as could being secure in your "persons" as it's an item carried on your person. Demanding a posession requires probable cause. Is getting on an airplane "probable cause"?

---What it DOES refer to are one's person, as in the authorities can't just start rifling thru your pockets or body cavities without a damned good reason---

My pockets are where I keep my ID. What's the difference between someone rifling through them, and being forced to present the contents myself?

Again, I'd like to see a court rule on such matters.

---I don't see, even if I strain, any possible way that the intent of the bill of rights was to allow anonimity in any situation other than in ones own private spaces---

Anonymity is a key part of freedom of speech. I notice you don't post here under your real name, nor do you list your address and phone number with each post. If you had to do that, would you speak as freely? I don't think it's our government's job to be keeping tabs on people who aren't lawbreakers, who aren't suspects. Again, it's a slippery slope to Big Brother, but if I say that, you'll call me a conspiracy nut.

---When you say "traditionally", I presume you mean as the law has been applied in the past---

I say "traditionally" because a recent court case has changed what can be considered "probable cause". See this page for more details:
http://www.papersplease.org/hiibel/

This changes everything, so I'm not sure how one would interpret it these days.

It's also problematic to me in that you are not forced, by law, to have a driver's license or government issued ID. What if you don't have one? Does this mean you can be jailed? Is there a law that says you must have a driver's license? Or is it another secret law?

---That is why I am a staunch defender of the 2nd ammendment, and it definitely applies to individuals, not the government only. Because if that one goes then the others will fall alot easier.---

One of the big arguments defenders of the 2nd Amendment always bring up is the "slippery slope". If you ban assault rifles, it'll lead to banning handguns, which will lead to banning all guns. I think the same argument is valid here. If you must identify yourself whenever you travel, soon you'll have to submit to more and more unreasonable searches and violation of privacy. Also if you allow the government one secret law, they'll throw in more and more until they can arrest anyone they want without a valid reason.

I'm not trying to claim either of these things is happening now, but we should remain ever vigilant, and better safe than sorry.

The Constitution provides individual citizens with the power to challenge any law they find unjust. It doesn't matter if that citizen is a "bozo", he still has that right. Clearly the courts don't think he's a "bozo" as they're hearing the case.

---And, give me a break here; The Constitution is trivial? I believe that I have shown that it is this person that is trivial, NOT the constitution as it in no way has anything to do with ID in public---

No, this person is standing up for his Constitutional rights. And that's not trivial at all. Think of the strip searches he's going to go through every time he tries to travel from now on, whether he wins or loses the case. Our rights to privacy, our rights not to have the police rifling through our private posessions, is not trivial. You may think he's wrong, but that's for a court to decide. That's why they're there.

Posted by: tic swayback   Posted on: 02/10/05 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use

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