EU steps into digital rights debate

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Keep an open mind Spoon

I personally don't have an issue with showing ID to get on an airplane. I think it's a silly rule, as it serves no purpose (the 9/11 hijackers, for example, in general had valid drivers licenses and were not on watch lists). What it is, is "window dressing" security, which makes people feel something is being done for their benefit, but it really makes no improvement in security.

What makes me worried here is the existence of a secret law. You've listed several circumstances where laws seemingly in violation of the Constitution have been allowed (hate speech for example). If we are not allowed to know that this law exists, or to read it, how can we hope to challenge its constitutionality?

How are we supposed to know if we're violating some secret law that we're not allowed to know exists? I'd like to obey the laws. To know how to do that, I need to know what they are.

That to me is the really big issue here. Requiring you to produce your papers, while not requiring you to actually have papers, is a secondary issue, more of an illegal search and seizure question.

---The 9th circuit eh? The most overturned court in the nation, let's see what happens in this case---

The original case was actually thrown out over a technicality before it was tried. The judge encouraged a re-filing, which has occured and it's being fought now.

---By your arguement you should be able to refuse to show ID at the liquor store and still demand to be served. Rediculous huh?---

Is there actually a law that requires this? I frequently buy liquor without being asked to produce my papers. If there is such a law, I assume that we are allowed to know it exists, and can read it. That's all I'm asking for here.

---I'm tired of hearing about morons who don't get it (not talking about you) and think that they have all of these cooked up rights.---

Under our Constitution, we have the right to challenge any law that violates the Constitution. That's a good thing. Maybe it allows for morons to have their day in court, but that, again, is a good thing. Secret laws that can't be challenged are not good things.

---Who needs a law, secret or otherwise, to realize the common sense for requiring ID?---

It's not at all obvious. Bruce Schneier discusses it here while discussing national id cards:
http://www.schneier.com/essay-034.html

The first problem is the card itself. No matter how unforgeable we make it, it will be forged. And even worse, people will get legitimate cards in fraudulent names.

Two of the 9/11 terrorists had valid Virginia driver's licenses in fake names. And even if we could guarantee that everyone who issued national ID cards couldn't be bribed, initial cardholder identity would be determined by other identity documents ... all of which would be easier to forge.

What good would it have been to know the names of Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, or the DC snipers before they were arrested? Palestinian suicide bombers generally have no history of terrorism. The goal is here is to know someone's intentions, and their identity has very little to do with that.

---I also appreciate the logical factual way you presented the facts in your post, but disagree (surprised?) on this point also---

I think there is common ground here. I'm not trying to be an alarmist or a conspiracy theorist. I think we can both agree that government should be transparent. It's our government, we elect these people, we should be able to see what laws they're passing that directly affect our lives, and be able to challenge those laws if they're unfair. You may disagree that this law violates the 4th amendment, but I think you'll agree that it should not be kept secret and unchallengable.

Posted by: tic swayback   Posted on: 02/10/05 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use

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