Judge rules COPA unconstitutional

TalkBack 69 of 109:

Next »

« Previous

• Thread View
• Flat View

May the truth set you free...

It would appear it is you who is 'in deep'. You focus on some information and
conveniently sidestep the rest. Is it so hard to discover the truth? To accept truth
and reject lies?

1. With regard to your quote "...the Bush Administration is way too incompetent to
engineer a cover-up that involved, over something that major."

Where is your link or reference?

Nonetheless, your opinion seems to agree to some extent with some the
information known to date.

Namely, that the Bush Administration (and others) are (and continue to be)
incompetent in many aspects relating to the attempted cover-up of 911. They
stuffed up. Because they were caught out.

For an appreciation of the facts, watch the DVD "Martial Law 911: Rise of the
Police State" by Alex Jones. Visit http://www.infowars.com/martial_law_911.htm

A visit to http://www.newworldpeace.com/independ6e.html would also be
instructive. There are a number of thought provoking articles available on the
internet. As you may gather, a gamut of resources are available. And a good
investigator investigates thoroughly.

Consequently, the known facts indicate many attempts to cover-up various
aspects of the plot. More on this at point 3.

2. The inherent strategy includes laying the blame for (and so the justification
thereof) the so-called 'War Against Terror' on Muslims and their 'fanaticism',
embroiling the world in (especially a so-called 'Christian' versus 'Muslim') war, and
restricting or revoking the 'Freedoms' of Americans and others around the world.

That's where the ACLU becomes useful to those who want to 'control the world'.
They restrict or revoke the 'Freedoms' of Americans and others around the world.

It's bad enough in non or anti-Christian nations. Being to China lately?

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2006/11/30/epochtimes-three-christian-
leaders-in-china-secretly-executed/

Innocent of alleged crimes but executed nonetheless, because of their faith.

"Jiang and her mother-in-law knew the risk of spreading Christian literature in
communist China. Both had been active in their church for more than 10 years and
dared to go forth. Even when they were arrested, interrogated and sentenced to
serve 15 days, they were willing to accept the consequences of their actions?all
from a government that claims to have ?freedom of religion.?

"But it was not enough for the PSB to arrest and beat these two Christian women
for the crime of passing our Christian literature. In the afternoon of June 18th,
Mrs. Jiang Zongziu was pronounced dead by the PSB office of Tongzi County. They
claimed she died of ?natural causes.? The fact is she was beaten to death."

http://mosaicmiami.blogspot.com/2006/08/china-executed-for-distributing-
bibles.html

Are Christians no longer permitted to exercise their faith in 'Christian' nations in
case they offend someone of another faith?

Remember this example? The ACLU encourages Islam.

"Apparently the sacred American Civil Liberties Union doctrines of the separation
of church and state only apply to Christians and Jews. How else can you explain
why the North Carolina ACLU went to court to support the University of North
Carolina's mandatory reading assignment of the pro-Islam book for incoming
freshmen?

"UNC was challenged by concerned groups in the state, but the ACLU rode to the
rescue and a federal appeals court sided with the university.

"Try to imagine the ACLU's legal response had UNC Chancellor Moeser assigned all
incoming freshmen to read the Old Testament or the Talmud before being
admitted. All hell would have broken loose."

http://www.blessedcause.org/Antichrist%20ID/ACLU%20attacks%
20Constitution.htm

?It?s interesting that the ACLU is opposing our elective Bible course, but they don?t
say anything about the mandatory readings on Islam at the University of North
Carolina-Chapel Hill,? Ridenour observes.

http://www.afa.net/journal/september/2002/education.asp

The elective Bible course is opposed by the ACLU. Elective means optional.

But the ACLU defends mandatory readings on Islam... !? Mandatory means
compulsory. Where's your freedom there?

"It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error;
it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." --
Justice Robert H. Jackson, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

3. It neatly fits the aims of those who use what Hegel theorized, that "Conflict
brings about change, and planned conflict would bring about planned change."

So the classic strategy of 'thesis versus antithesis equals synthesis' results in one
solution provided or enforced to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

Let's consider the import of this situation. Elements of the U.S. government (and
others) are complicit in organising 911. That is, the U.S. government and others
organised (or allowed to happen) the murder of innocent people, blame the whole
episode on the supposed 'Muslims' of Al Qaeda, and use that lie as a justification
to wage a war on other innocent people and nations around the world?

Hmmm, that is a serious effort requiring lots of resources and people lying their
hearts out. No wonder there are holes in the official story you can fly a number of
jumbo jets through. The truth is certainly hurting those who prefer darkness.

'Marvin P. Bush, the president?s younger brother, was a principal in a company
called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United
Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed
by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns
also served. [Utne]

'According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing
contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings
fell down."

'The company lists as government clients "the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force,
and the Department of Justice," in projects that "often require state-of-the-art
security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites."'

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911security.html

Nightvision anyone?

4. And yet it seems Al Qaeda... is a fake, a decoy, a false flag operation, a front for
the NWO. Kawther Salam writes:

"What does the word "Al-Qaeda" mean ? In Arabic, "Al-Qaeda" has a different
meanings, among them ?Base", "Ground", "Norm", "Rule", "Fundament",
"Grammar". The exact meaning is dependent on the context in which it is used. It
depends on the word which follows ?Al-Qaeda? in the sentence. "Qawa'ad Askaria"
is an Army Base, "Qawa'ad Lugha" stands for Grammar Rules (the Bases of
Grammar).

"Qa'ada" is the infinitive of the verb "to sit". "Ma-Qa'ad" is a chair. "Al-Qaeda" is
the base or fundament of something. "Ana raicha Al Qaeda" is colloquial for "I'm
going to the toilet". A very common and widespread use of the word ?Al-Qaeda? in
different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name
comes from the Arabic verb ?Qa'ada? which mean ?to sit?, pertinently, on the
?Toilet Bowl?.

"In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: ?Al-Qaeda? also called the
"Hamam Franji" or foreign toilet, and "Hamam Arabi" or ?Arab toilet? which is a
hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called "Ma
Qa'adia" or "Little Qaeda".

"Those who founded the glorious "International of Islamic Terror, Al-Qaeda,
probably knew too little about common use of Arabic language to know that by
using this name for their organization, they risked becoming the laughing stock of
everybody who speaks the Arabic "public" language."

So, if you were forming a terrorist group, would you call yourself, 'The Toilet'?

Kawther continues:

"The terrorist event of New York 11 September 20001, and the terror event of
Madrid on 11 March 2004, and other terror events commonly connected to Islam,
are clearly not related to Islam if we consider that the Al-Qaeda terror
organization was established by the C.I.A in the 1980s. Al-Qaeda is nothing but a
conveniently "Islamic" front which enables the C.I.A. to commit crimes in the name
of Muslims.

"It is well known that the Mujahadeen terrorists of Afghanistan were organized,
trained and funded by the C.I.A. using the Pakistani ISI as a "cut-out" in order to
lure the Soviet Army into Afghanistan at the end of 1979. The Mujahedeen can be
seen as C.I.A. terrorism with an islamic name and "islamic" perpetrators.
Afghanistan has, for all purposes, been destroyed by these fanatics in furtherance
of American interests.

"The Al-Qaeda terror organization has caused immense damage to Islam, to
Moslems worldwide and to the interests of the peoples of all Arab and Muslim
countries. The actions of Al-Qaeda have only served to promote the interests of
the U.S. and Israel, which are clearly interested in "reshaping" the Middle East in
such a way that they can more easily rape and plunder the region at will.

"In fact the C.I.A is using the terrorist actions of its proxy Al-Qaeda in order to
give the U.S. an excuse to extend their power into and invade the Arab countries,
first countries with rich plunder (Oil) like Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, and second any
country which is a "threat" to Israel, or more exactly which Israel dislikes for
whatever reason. The third objective for which the C.I.A. is using its proxy Al-
Qaeda is to engender fear and hate of Islam and Muslims worldwide.

"This corresponds to an old and tried ploy of colonizers: to slander and denigrate
the target population so that it is acceptable and even called for to commit
genocide against them. The peoples of Ireland, Africa and the Americas have all
suffered this tragedy, and these regions have been colonized. The next obvious
victims are Arabs and Muslims by extension because they live in geographic areas
rich in oil and other resources, and because Muslims as a collective are not white
enough to be respected as full humans by the criminals in London, Washinton and
Tel Aviv."

http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/june2004/062504manufacturedfront.htm

5. The facts relating to 911 show Muslims have been maligned and used as scape
goats. They have been offended. And according to their Qu-ran, will (when their
patience expires and given the opportunity) eventually take action against us all.

And making readings on Islam mandatory is adding fuel to the fire. Deliberately.
But just as the ACLU intends, we know it is for a purpose. To bring us into conflict,
and deny us our freedoms.

So in time, riled Muslims may prove (as in the past) to be very serious enemies
indeed.

Which is exactly the outcome advocates of the NWO are pursuing. They want a
New World Order. To achieve that aim, the 'old' or previous world must be
destroyed. To destroy a previous 'civilisation' or regime you need enemies (even if
manufactured or goaded).

6. You can read of the connection between socialism (et al) and 'democracy' for
yourself, "...namely: the interpretation of Socialism as a movement that ?
one day ? would transform the political (bourgeois) democracy into a Social
Democracy, and Socialism as the ultimate goal that really would represent
?organised liberty?, ?complete democracy? and thus guarantee Peace ? as De
Brouck?re had formulated."

www.iisg.nl/publications/respap29.pdf

A violent revolution is in progress. Just as Hegel theorized, "Conflict brings about
change, and planned conflict would bring about planned change."

7. http://newamericancentury.org/ is one of a number of websites the so-called
elite use to propagandise and communicate with their audiences. A visit to http://
www.cfr.org/ and http://www.trilateral.org/ could well be enlightening.

Note the IBM logo.

Seek and you will find the truth. There is a historical connection between Nazism,
Hollerith, IBM, RFID chipping of every human on the planet, Fascism and the so-
called New World Order (NWO).

Hollerith (of IBM)....

"The new revelation of IBM technology in the Auschwitz area constitutes the final
link in the chain of documentation surrounding Big Blue's vast enterprise in Nazi-
occupied Poland, supervised at first directly from its New York headquarters, and
later through its Geneva office."

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/articles/auschwitz.html

"At the heart of Black's argument is that information technology--in the form of
IBM's Hollerith punch-card machines--provided the Nazis with a unique and
critical tool in their task of cataloguing and dispatching their millions of victims."
"Those six phases are identification, expulsion, confiscation, ghettoization,
deportation and ultimately even extermination."

"Remember, the original Auschwitz tattoo was an IBM number."

"It was never about the Nazism. It was never about the anti-Semitism. It was only
about the money. They didn't hate Poles when they opened up a subsidiary in
war-torn Poland. They didn't hate the Dutch when they opened up the subsidiary
in Holland just before the Nazis moved in, or the French when they ramped up the
subsidiary in occupied France. They didn't hate the Brits or the Americans when
Hollerith machines were used to target the V2 rockets. It wasn't personal--it was
just business."

http://news.com.com/2009-1082-269157.html

"The role played by group classification on national identity cards in crimes of
genocide in Rwanda and in Nazi Germany should trouble all persons concerned
with prevention of genocide. In Nazi Germany in July 1938, only a few months
before Kristallnacht, the infamous "J-stamp" was introduced on ID cards and later
on passports. The use of specially marked "J-stamp" ID cards by Nazi Germany
preceded the yellow Star of David badges. In Norway, where yellow cloth badges
were not introduced, the stamped ID card was used in the identification of more
than 750 Jews deported to death camps in Poland.

"(1) Ethnic classification on ID Cards in Rwanda instituted by the Belgian colonial
government and retained after independence, was central in shaping, defining and
perpetuating ethnic identity. Once the 1994 genocide in Rwanda began, an ID card
with the designation "Tutsi" spelled a death sentence at any roadblock.

"(2) No other factor was more significant in facilitating the speed and magnitude
of the 100 days of mass killing in Rwanda.

"National ID cards of all kinds are controversial. In recent years in the United
States, Britain, Canada and Australia proposals for introducing national ID cards
and registry systems have raised debate about governmental control and privacy
issues.

"Classification of ethnic, racial or religious groups on ID cards, however, is a
distinctively different issue. Group classification on ID cards or other official
personal documents (passports, residence permits, etc.) force a person to be
affiliated with a governmentally-defined group and expose persons to profiling
and human rights abuses based upon their group identity.

"In times of crisis such classifications facilitate the targeting of persons on the
basis of group affiliation, making individuals readily identifiable for possible
detention, deportation, or death."

http://www.preventgenocide.org/prevent/removing-facilitating-factors/IDcards/

"If the intention is now to use the ID Card to somehow catch terrorists, who move
about much more secretly than Sex Offenders do, then the change of address
regulations for the whole population are going to have to be at least as harsh as
for Sex Offenders, or have the Government not thought this through properly,
again?"

http://www.spy.org.uk/cgi-bin/idcards.pl#IBMholocaust

"The Liberty Alliance Project, a consortium of companies and government
organizations, creates standards for identity federation. Formed four years ago,
the Liberty Alliance -- backed by IBM, Sun Microsystems and others -- has worked
with the Organization for the Advancement of Structure Information Standards
(OASIS) to develop SAML (Security Assertion Markup Language) for identity
federation. A third organization, WS-Federation, backed by Microsoft, is also
working on a federated identity standard.

"The standard -- if any -- that is used by governments could have a strong
impact on vendors vying for large-scale government IT infrastructure contracts."

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1155018776;fp;16;fpid;0

"Both chambers of the Maine legislature approved a resolution saying the state
flatly "refuses" to force its citizens to use driver's licenses that comply with digital
ID standards, which were established under the 2005 Real ID Act. It asks the U.S.
Congress to repeal the law.

"Other states are debating similar measures. Bills pending in Georgia,
Massachusetts, Montana and Washington state express varying degrees of
opposition to the Real ID Act.

"Montana's is one of the strongest. The legislature held a hearing on Wednesday
on a bill that says "The state of Montana will not participate in the implementation
of the Real ID Act of 2005" and directs the state motor vehicle department "not to
implement the provisions."

http://news.com.com/2100-7348_3-6153532.html

"Understanding of smart card systems, large-scale delivery
With smart card and secure ID solutions, IBM brings the experience needed to help
you plan and execute a comprehensive smart card strategy."

http://www-03.ibm.com/industries/wireless/doc/content/solution/
1140621104.html

? "How fortunate for governments that men do not think"
? "The masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than a
small one"
? "The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"
? "Only force rules. Force is the first law"

Adolf Hitler

http://protect-your-freedom.co.uk/illuminati-skull-and-bones-freemasons-
knights-templar.html

"3 stages to control you!"

http://protect-your-freedom.co.uk/id-cards-microchips-varichip-control.html?

8. "Do you really think that the spying they're doing on Americans is to prevent
terrorism? Just keep the borders wide open and strip search Americans at airports
and train stations, right? Institute random checkpoints on the roads and force
everyone to carry national ID cards. That's what Hitler and Stalin said. Well the
national ID card was passed through congress earlier this year and you have to
carry it in 2008."

"The Columbian faction of the Illuminati founded the US government, hence
Washington DC (District of Columbia) and their all seeing eye which is on the CBS
(Columbia Broadcasting Service) logo. They control the federal government, all
mainstream media, the churches through the vatican, the universities, and most
fortune 500 companies."

http://www.freewebs.com/tonysomers/
Note: About two thirds down the page of the above link, note the Hollerith poster.

9. Daniel Estulin is an award-winning investigative journalist who has been
researching the Bilderbergers for over 13 years. Estulin was one of only two
journalists in the world who witnessed and reported (from beyond the heavily
guarded perimeter) the super secret meeting at the Dorint Sofitel Seehotel in
Rottach-Egern, Munich, Bavaria, Germany, on May 5?8, 2005.

According to Estulin's sources, Bilderberg are very angry at the alternative truth
movement and its opposition and exposure of Bilderberg's agenda. More
specifically, the Christian Patriot movement in America was highlighted as a
nuisance that will have to be dealt with.

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/270505estulin.htm

10. These concepts, corporations, and technology are in complete opposition to
Freedom. After all, totalitarianism is Big Business. If you have watched 'The
Corporation' then you'll have a good insight.

Visit http://www.thecorporation.com/

You have a choice. You can believe the NWO lies, or discern the truth. For
example:

11. You could visit http://www.bilderberg.org/bilder.htm and order yourself a
copy of the 'Secret Rulers of the World - The Bilderberg Group' for ?15 if you're
outside of the U.K.

"The ideology put forward at the Bilderberg conferences is that what's good for
banking and big business is good for the mere mortals of the world. Silently
banished are the critical voices, those that might point out that debt is spiralling
out of control, that wealth is being sucked away from ordinary people and into the
hands of the faceless corporate institutions, that millions are dying as a direct
result of the global heavyweight Rockefeller/Rothschild economic strategies."

http://www.bilderberg.org/bilder.htm

These strategies are planned well in advance. Around a basic idea that Mayer
Amschel Rothschild declared circa 1790:

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws."

This consequence of this truth is confirmed by the quotes of knowledgeable men
including:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than
standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set
the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away
from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1787

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the
leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above
the hand that takes...Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism
and without decency; their sole object is gain."
-- Napoleon

"If I told you I thought the world was controlled by a handful of capitalists and
corporate bosses, you would say I was a left-winger, but if I told you who I
thought the capitalists and corporate bosses were, you would say I was far right."
-- anonymous

"Whomsoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of
all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very
easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will
not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate."
-- former President James Garfield

"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has
ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know
that this nation is run by the International Bankers."
-- Congressman Louis T. McFadden, 1934

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great
industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is
concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the
hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most
completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world, no
longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and
the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small
group of dominant men."
-- former President Woodrow Wilson

"Unless you become more watchful in your states and check this spirit of
monopoly and thirst for exclusive privileges, you will in the end find that the most
important powers of government have been given or bartered away, and the
control of your dearest interests have been passed into the hands of these
corporations."
-- Andrew Jackson

"The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the
velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their
door."
-- Ralph Nader

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently
opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/quotes/

12. So your assertion that:

"...the idea that the Government actually pulled off the attacks themselves,
demolishing the Towers, in the largest city in America, with millions of eye-
witnesses watching that day, is baloney. It?s insane. And it has been quite
thoroughly debunked."

is based on what facts? Please cite them with links or references.

13. Because it certainly does matter what a founder of an organisation (like the
ACLU) believes. Especially when that set of 'values' is incorporated in a plan that
intends to overthrow the U.S. Republic.

'Herbert Titus, one of three attorneys defending Chief Justice Roy Moore, knows
firsthand about the ACLU and its aims. A Harvard Law School graduate who served
in the U.S. Justice Department under Robert Kennedy, Titus taught law at the
University of Oregon Law School.
???
'And he pursued legal activism, signing on to serve as an ACLU attorney. He
knows better than most what the ACLU?s true objectives are and what is at stake
in the lawsuit filed against Chief Justice Moore. Titus, who came to Christ in 1975,
later taught law at the Oral Roberts University School of Law and served as the
founding Dean of the College of Law and Government at Regent University.

Promote, Not Establish
'A highly regarded constitutional scholar, Titus said Moore?s Ten Commandments
display does not violate the First Amendment?s ban on the establishment of
religion. To establish religion, he said, is to use the ?coercive power of the state to
enforce duties that God Himself has reserved to Himself.? When Moore installed
the Ten Commandments, he ?did not in anyway coerce anybody to do anything.?
????
'But doesn?t the monument promote a particular point of view? Yes, said Titus. It
promotes the same point of view espoused in the Declaration of Independence,
namely that law comes from God. If Moore?s enemies are right to claim that he, as
a public official, cannot have that view, then, said Titus, ?we better tear up the
Declaration of Independence, because that?s the view of the Declaration of
Independence.?
????
' Moore?s opponents won?t ?go that far because they know it?s not politically
popular to do that?not yet,? said Titus. ?But, that?s where they will go if they?re
allowed to get away with this.?
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?The ACLU, says Titus, wants nothing less than to scrub the American landscape
clean of all ?vestiges of the religious foundation of law and liberty in America.?
And it seeks vulnerable targets in its campaign to purge religion from public life.
?Chief Justice Moore,? he said, ?is a vulnerable target, just as cities and town and
states across the country have been vulnerable targets to this assault on America?s
Christian tradition.?
_____________________________

?What?s at stake in the case involving Chief Justice Moore and the monument that
contains the Ten Commandments is the very future of the nation.?
_____________________________

?Small victories, he said, build precedents for larger cases. Given enough
courtroom conquests, the ACLU will go on to challenge ?any reference to God in
any public place, in any public ceremony of any kind.? That includes, he said, ?In
God We Trust? on our money, and ?Under God? in the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Plan
????
?I know,? he said. ?I used to be an ACLU cooperating attorney. In the 1960s there
was a definite plan to rid this nation of all public displays of any religious symbol
of this nation?s founding.? The case against Moore, he said, is ?just part of that
plan,? and the reason why the outcome is so critical.
????
?What?s at stake in the case involving Chief Justice Moore and the monument that
contains the Ten Commandments is the very future of the nation,? said Titus.
????
?Are we going to be a nation under God with liberty and justice for all? Are we
going to be a nation that rejects God and says that God belongs only behind the
four walls of the church or the four walls of our home? That?s the issue in this
case.? '

http://www.coralridge.org/impact/2002_Jan_Pg5.htm

14. You falsely assume my post was attacking Roger Baldwin. I was relating the
facts as history records. Do you know otherwise? Links and references please.

Or are you implying the historical record is attacking Roger Baldwin? Why paint me
in a poor light along the way? A personal attack? Curious.

Why would you defend someone from history? Is it perhaps you share a common
bond with Mr. Baldwin? And consequently, it seems you have the need to
(perceivably) protect yourself in the process? Which is even more telling.

15. You are in error in comparing Marxist-style communism and the verses from
Acts; 2:44-45, 4:31-37, and 5:1-11.

This commentary from BibleGateway.com highlights the difference:

"Does this point to a customary practice in property transfer (Lake and Cadbury
1979:49), to an educational context (compare 22:3; Williams 1985:79) or to a
political context (compare 2:35)? Whatever the background, it is clear that the
apostles have full authority over the fund. As a development of the ad hoc
arrangements of Acts 2:45 (see comment there), a common fund for the poor has
been created, and the rich in the congregation keep it continuously supplied.
"Jerusalem's tenuous local economy and Palestine's famines and political unrest
placed some members in economic need. The displacement of the Galilean
apostles and other members of the church's central core away from their normal
means of livelihood, together with social and economic persecution, necessitated
a ministry to meet economic needs (Longenecker 1981:310).
"Should we see this process as normative for God's people in all times and all
places? Whether because of Luke's supposedly unhistorical, idealized picture (L. T.
Johnson 1981:129) or its supposed failure and lack of precedent in other churches
(compare 11:27-30; 24:17; Rom 15:26) or the presence of examples that are
really exceptions to the rule (Longenecker 1981:311), many have said this
passage gives no normative teaching about structuring the church's common life.
We must understand, however, that the structure Luke points to is not a coercive
communism that dispenses with private property through once-for-all
expropriation to a common fund. Luke never presents the system as a failure but
rather sees all churches as living out not only their responsibility for the poor
(Acts 20:35) but also their interdependence through caring for one another. The
Jerusalem church just happened to be on the receiving end most of the time. Seen
in this light, what Luke calls for is fully normative."

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?
action=getCommentaryText&cid=5&source=1&seq=i.51.4.4

Note:

We must understand, however, that the structure Luke points to is not a coercive
communism that dispenses with private property through once-for-all
expropriation to a common fund.

As Matthew Henry (Commentaries) explained:

"1. They had frequent meetings for Christian converse (v. 44): All that believed
were together; not all those thousands in one place (this was impracticable); but,
as Dr. Lightfoot explains it, they kept together in several companies or
congregations, according as their languages, nations, or other associations,
brought them and kept them together. And thus joining together, because it was
apart from those that believed not, and because it was in the same profession and
practice of the duties of religion, they are said to be together, epi to auto . They
associated together, and so both expressed and increased their mutual love. 2.
They had all things common; perhaps they had common tables (as the Spartans of
old), for familiarity, temperance and freedom of conversation; they ate together,
that those who had much might have the less, and so be kept from the
temptations of abundance; and they who had little might have the more, and so
be kept from the temptations of want and poverty. Or, There was such a concern
for one another, and such a readiness to help one another as there was occasion,
that it might be said, They had all things common, according to the law of
friendship; one wanted not what another had; for he might have it for the asking.
3. They were very cheerful, and very generous in the use of what they had. Besides
the religion that was in their sacred feasts (their breaking bread from house to
house ) a great deal of it appeared in their common meals; they did eat their meat
with gladness and singleness of heart. They brought the comforts of God?s table
along with them to their own, which had two good effects upon them:?(1.) It
made them very pleasant, and enlarged their hearts with holy joy; they did eat
their bread with joy, and drank their wine with a merry heart, as knowing that God
now accepted their works. None have such cause to be cheerful as good Christians
have; it is a pity but that they should always have hearts to be so. (2.) It made
them very liberal to their poor brethren, and enlarged their hearts in charity. They
did eat their meat with singleness of heart, en apheloteti kardias ? with liberality
of heart; so some: they did not eat their morsels alone, but bade the poor
welcome to their table, not grudgingly, but with all the hearty freedom
imaginable. Note, It becomes Christians to be open-hearted and open-handed,
and in every good work to sow plentifully, as those on whom God hath sown
plentifully, and who hope to reap so. 4. They raised a fund for charity (v. 45): They
sold their possessions and goods; some sold their lands and houses, others their
stocks and the furniture of their houses, and parted the money to their brethren,
as every man had need. This was to destroy, not property (as Mr. Baxter says), but
selfishness. Herein, probably, they had an eye to the command which Christ gave
to the rich man, as a test of his sincerity, Sell that thou hast, and give to the poor.
Not that this was intended for an example to be a constant binding rule, as if all
Christians in all places and ages were bound to sell their estates, and give away
the money in charity. For St. Paul?s epistles, after this, often speak of the
distinction of rich and poor, and Christ hath said that the poor we always have
with us, and shall have, and the rich must be always doing them good out of the
rents, issues, and profits, of their estates, which they disable themselves to do, if
they sell them, and give all away at once. But here the case was extraordinary (1.)
They were under no obligation of a divine command to do this, as appears by
what Peter said to Ananias (ch. 5:4): Was it not in thine own power? But it was a
very commendable instance of their raisedness above the world, their contempt of
it, their assurance of another world, their love to their brethren, their compassion
to the poor, and their great zeal for the encouraging of Christianity, and the
nursing of it in its infancy. The apostles left all to follow Christ, and were to give
themselves wholly to the word and prayer, and something must be done for their
maintenance; so that this extraordinary liberality was like that of Israel in the
wilderness towards the building of the tabernacle, which needed to be restrained,
Ex. 36:5, 6. Our rule is, to give according as God has blessed us; yet, in such an
extraordinary case as this, those are to be praised who give beyond their power, 2
Co. 8:3. (2.) They were Jews that did this, and those who believed Christ must
believe that the Jewish nation would shortly be destroyed, and an end put to the
possession of estates and goods in it, and, in the belief of this, they sold them for
the present service of Christ and his church."

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?
book=ac&chapter=2&verse=45#Ac2_45

Note:

For St. Paul?s epistles, after this, often speak of the distinction of rich and poor,
and Christ hath said that the poor we always have with us, and shall have, and the
rich must be always doing them good out of the rents, issues, and profits, of their
estates, which they disable themselves to do, if they sell them, and give all away at
once. But here the case was extraordinary (1.) They were under no obligation of a
divine command to do this, as appears by what Peter said to Ananias (ch. 5:4):
Was it not in thine own power?

Another discussion concludes:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.
From here to the end of verse 47 Luke describes almost every aspect of the life of
this first Christian congregation. Note that all of the verbs are in the imperfect
tense denoting continuous, customary, or repeated action. These verses are filled
with joy and a carefree attitude.

Kretzmann: It was God's intention that the young plant of His Church was to enjoy
a peaceful growth for a season. They did not practice communism, they did not
abrogate the right of private property. Not the possession, but the use and benefit
of the good was common.

Lenski: "In common" is predicative. This states the main idea, namely, how they
considered and treated their possessions, not as belonging to the owner only, but
as something in which the rest were to share as need arose. This was not
communism but the product of something that communism does not understand.

Marshall: We have avoided the use of the term 'communism' in describing this
practice, since modern communism is a description of a political and economic
system of such a different character that it is anachronistic and misleading to use
the term in the present context.

Acts 2:45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had
need.

Most versions translate the two nouns with "possessions and goods." The tense of
the verbs indicates that what happened, happened again and again.

Kretzmann: The well-to-do Christians were willing and eager to make these
sacrifices when it was evident that this was the only way in which the needs of the
brethren could be supplied.

Lenski: It is a fair conclusion that most of these Jews who had moved to Jerusalem
from distant lands and were now believers were well off and were living on their
wealth. Yet they had changed their entire attitude toward their wealth and were
now using it in fine Christian charity. What Luke describes is a fine display of
Christian charity.

http://www.pericope.org/buls-notes/acts/acts_2_37_47.htm

Again, your understanding that the verses you quoted from Acts refer to
communism is false. Christian charity is not communism.

16. As shown previously, 'democracy' is a socialist device. Indeed, these three,
Communism, Capitalism and Socialism are tools of the so-called 'class warfare'.

You can read of the connection between socialism (et al) and 'democracy' for
yourself,

"...namely: the interpretation of Socialism as a movement that ?
one day ? would transform the political (bourgeois) democracy into a Social
Democracy, and Socialism as the ultimate goal that really would represent
?organised liberty?, ?complete democracy? and thus guarantee Peace ? as De
Brouck?re had formulated."

www.iisg.nl/publications/respap29.pdf

The people operating this website ought to know, it is, after all, the International
Institute of Social History.

"Since 1979, the Institute has worked within the framework of the Royal
Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences."

http://www.iisg.nl/iisg/history.php

Though you would be better off reading of the nexus between capitalism,
communism, nazism, and socialism in "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen
with Larry Abraham by Concord Press (Rossmoor California) 1972 (third printing).

Read this book and you will learn soon who currently controls the U.S. and the
world. It's definitely NOT 'the people' as in the voters.

17. At no time did I say or infer that 'Capitalism' was mentioned in the Bible. For
you to say that I did suggests either you are careless, predisposed to lying, or
intent on libel. May I put it down to your carelessness?

18. Communism is not an economic system. Harold O.J. Brown writes:

"The experience of half a century of competing systems operating adjacent to one
another?the Bundesrepublik over against the Deutsche Demokratische Republik
in Europe; North and South Korea in Asia?has revealed the total inability of
communist central planning to produce the wealth that people crave. Our markets
satisfy such craving. Satiated, no one ?panteth after thee, O God? (Psalm 42:1)."

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/2005/
March2005/0305Brown.html

An economic system that fails to work is no longer a viable economic system.
Period.

http://www.wisegeek.com/why-didnt-communism-work-in-east-europe.htm

And via PhysicsForums.com we can appreciate the fact that Lenin advocates hate...

We must hate ? hatred is the basis of communism. Children must be taught to
hate their parents if they are not communists.
Lenin

How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And
how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and
Lenin.
Ronald Reagan

The goal of socialism is communism.
Lenin

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=62180&page=2

19. Communism is not the opposite of Capitalism. Communism, socialism and
capitalism are tools or devices used by the so-called elite as they see fit. Alan
Gourley writes in 'Brain-wash' [ISBN 0 9588651 75]:

"SOCIAL SYSTEMS
The human social order is called DEMOCRACY and is a system of individual
freedom confined within a kingdom of natural order. It can be said to be a
structure satisfying the need for human self-motivation with protection against
disintegration into chaos. In other words it is a system of freedom within law.

"The system "Common Order, Man Made Unity, No Individual Sef-Motivation' =
COMMUNISM, is not a human social order but a man-made attempt to impose on
humanity a social organisation best suited to insects.

"Communism, which is only a development of socialism, is not a human system. It
is not even a deformity of a human system as are, for instance dictatorships or
republics; socialism is a device or design of elitism.

"Capitalism is related to socialism; it is the queen bee and the worker thing, where
the 'queen' provides the authority very much as with socialism except that, by an
extremely efficient public relations trick, it is presented as an executive ideal
rather than a worker's ideal.

"This twin pair is mechanistic, it offers an order based on the mechanical
arrangement of society creating a mechanical elitism of cybernetics ? a system of
order governed by intelligence without wisdom ? without soul. Elitism created
communism as a device to regiment common mankind as a slave force; a labour
to create the environment wanted by the self-seeking money mafia.

"Capitalism and communism have the same imperatives, the same need of a
permanent 'public relations' to kill off public enterprise and independent thinking
outside of the required limits of 'politically correct'; the same permanent mental
curtain to hide secretive control.

"A mark of this intelligentsia is long and involved titles spelling out meanings in a
mechanical kind of way, as shown in the treatment of the word communism
above. We, human beings, might think that the work communism was simply an
adaption from commune or community, as it is intended we think, but in fact both
commune and community infer a democratic interaction that is impossible with
communism; communism requires mindless service to the perpetuation of the
system. All thought, as we have seen, must be politically correct.

"Understanding something of the structure of the capitalist communism we
quickly see why they want an ability for detailed surveillance of every member of
the society and why it is, in operation, entirely ruthless and without conscience in
its treatment of those unwanted or rebellious."

Capitalism and communism are 'systems of order' that require all thought to be
politically correct. They are devices to manipulate the thoughts, actions, and
productivity of people to the advantage of those controlling these systems.

20. Your misquote of Matthew 19:21 suggests either a lack of diligent searching
for the truth in all things.

Matthew 19:21 (KJV) reads:

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to
the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matthew 19:21 (NIV) renders the verse:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to
the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"

The 'Life Application Study Bible' published jointly by Tynedale and Zondervan,
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 90-71553, carries explanatory notes to
scripture.

In regards to Matthew 19:21 (refer to page 1692)...

[1] When Jesus told this young man that he would "be perfect" if he gave
everything he had to the poor, Jesus wasn't speaking in the temporal, human
sense. He was explaining how to be justified and made whole or complete in God's
sight.

[2] Should all believers sell everything they own? No. We are responsible to care
for our own needs and the needs of our families so as not to be a burden on
others. We should, however, be willing to give up anything if God asks us to do so.
This kind of attitude allows nothing to come between us and God and keeps us
from using our God-given wealth selfishly. If you are comforted by the fact that
Christ did not tell all his followers to sell all their possessions, then you may be
too attached to what you have.

Note I Timothy 5:8 (KJV):

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he
hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

The expanatory note from the Life Application Study Bible (NIV) states:

Almost everyone has relatives, family of some kind. Family relationships are so
important in God's eyes, Paul says, that a person who neglects his or her family
responsibilities has denied the faith. Are you doing your part to meet the needs of
those included in your family circle?

Note II Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV):

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may
be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

21. Matthew 22:21 (KJV):

They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto
Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Mark 12:17 (KJV):

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are
Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Luke 20:25 (KJV):

And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be
Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

J. Stuart Taylor III preached a sermon at St. Marks Presbyterian Church in Tucson,
Arizona on 16 October, 2005:

You see, no matter how Jesus answered this question, he was going to lose. If he
said don?t pay the taxes, the authorities could arrest him and take him out. If he
said do pay, many of the people and some of his own followers would turn away
believing that the famous teacher had failed to address a critical issue before his
people. ?So teacher, you are wise tell us what we should do because we know you
are a straight shooter and always tell it like it is. ?Interesting little detail: Jesus had
no denarius. He had to ask for one. ?And then that coin becomes the dramatic
center of the story.? Whose head is this and whose title? They answered the
emperor?s. The coin bore the head of the Roman Emperor and the caption:
Tiberius Caesar, son of the divine Augustus. And then Jesus takes the question
put to him and turns it around and places it back on his adversaries. Render to
Caesar what is Caesar?s and render to god what is god?s. His answer, on the
surface, enabled him to escape the trap that had been set for him. But the
meaning was clear. ?

Matthew says that those who heard him were amazed (v.22), You see No faithful
Jew could have heard these words and seen any valid analogy between God and
emperor. Jesus stated the polar opposites of the Living God and Caesar and
challenged them to act according to their true allegiances. ?Jesus words created a
moment of decision for the people of Israel. This decision was to believe in trust
and serve the one Living God. Or to give your allegiance to a false god of the
emperor. In other words a choice between true faith and idolatry. Render to
Caesar, what is Caesar?s. And to God what is God?s. Ambiguous perhaps only to
the Roman troops undoubtedly within earshot of this conversation. But crystal
clear to all his followers. ?

Then and now Jesus puts the question back on us. Render to Caesar what is
Caesar?s and to God what is God?s. What are we called to do? And what do his
disciples make of this today?
?
There is hardly any text in the Gospels that has been more debated than this one,
subject to a variety of interpretations throughout the history of the church.

For Martin Luther in the Reformation it was very clear that Jesus was drawing a line
between the spiritual world where God?s authority is foremost. And the material
world where the state held highest authority. So you render to God those things
spiritual but you render to Caesar what is Caesar?s due.

This error had devastating effect during the emergence of Nazi tyranny and how
many, not all but most believed they must always obey the state in material
matters. The two realms world view of Martin Luther each with its own authority
has been a most unfortunate teaching that holds sway throughout the Protestant
denominations. Even among Presbyterians who should know better.

For Calvin unlike Luther would never divide the world into a spiritual realm where
we owe our obedience to God and a material realm where we owe our obedience
to the state.

For Calvin, Jesus was the lord of all life. And our spiritual obedience to God is
practiced in all aspects of life our political and economic lives. Jesus proclaimed
that there is a new order growing up from within society, and that order is the
gracious, liberating reign of God. No other authority stands, ultimately, than the
love and justice of the Living God.
?
So render unto Caesar what is Caesar and unto God what is God?s. This question
of the Christian?s role in society and our relationship to the state has been the
focal point of a fascinating conversation in Adult education with professors Jack
Marietta and Chuck Ares and Mark Chaves.

Talking about the separation of church and state. Jack has been looking at how
throughout American history we have wrestled with that as a nation and as
individual states sometimes in contradictory and conflicting ways.

Chuck Ares has been trying to address this moving target of separation of church
and state by looking at some of the controversial stances of the Supreme Court.

Next in this series, Dr. Mark Chaves will be looking at the whole issue of faith
based initiatives that has been a central plank in the administrations position on
public life.

I will be leading a study on Jim Wallis ?s new book entitled God?s politics. Subtitled
how the right gets it wrong and the left doesn?t get it. ?I know Jim Wallis and he
describes himself as a progressive evangelical. While believing that the Gospel has
radical implications for political and economic life, Wallis says God is neither a
republican nor a democrat.

Christians can seek to live out Gospel values in one of two ways. The first way,
God is on our side leads to triumphalism, self-righteousness, bad theology and
dangerous foreign policy.

The second way asking if we are on god?s side, can lead to much healthier things,
namely, repentance, humility, reflection and even accountability.

Wallis decries much of the theology and ethics of the evangelical movement and
the very serious and well-funded strategy of the religious right to take America?s
democracy and turn it into a fundamentalist theocracy. ?

But Wallis offers a prophetic critique of the left doesn?t get it or at least Howard
dean doesn?t. Much of the political left of American politics has completely has
bought into the ?two realms theory? that religious faith has to do only with the
spiritual and that when we come to political or economic life, we park our faith at
the door. ?
?
Well from the perspective of Biblical faith and reformed tradition, the message of
Jesus is clear. His words, ?Render to Caesar what is Caesar?s and to God what is
God?s? was and is a direct challenge to the idolatrous pretensions of the state.

Through this text, the Risen Christ challenges us to choose between true faith in
the living God and the false gods of the state. This prophetic critique could not be
more relevant today when what is called civil religion has corrupted Christianity to
the point where God and country are almost synonyms deserving of our absolute
obedience.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. The choice before us today is the same
choice before the people of Israel. Do we worship the one true living God or do we
worship an idol whatever that idol might be.

Look at the words of our affirmation of faith printed in your bulletin. ?We trust in
God alone. We worship God alone. We serve God alone. Because whatever is our
ultimate concern whether it is money, country or our own individual life becomes
our god. Our journey as disciples of Jesus Christ is a constant choice between
faith in the one living God and idolatry.
?
Another learning from this text: If we have relegated the one true living God to
one compartment of our lives, the religious compartment that is segregated from
the rest of life, then we are worshipping a false god. If we understand this text
rightly, it is no longer possible to spiritualize our faith into one compartment of
our life.

There is no dimension of life that is excluded from the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
We are called to obedience as disciples in every dimension of our lives, in politics
and in economics.

Wallis tells a tale about the bible and economic life. When he was in seminary a
group of curious students decided to take a bible and cut out every verse that had
to do with faithfulness in economic life. And when they were finished there was
hardly anything left.

The central message of our Bible is clear: Everything we have comes from God.
And once we really get this we are called in gratitude to be faithful stewards of all
that we have been given. Faithful stewards of our bodies and our health, of our
freedom and our choices, of our relationships, faithful stewards of the common
good, and of the world around us.

You see the spiritual practice of tithing of giving 10% to the church is really just a
sign that the other 90% is God?s as well, entrusted to us to use for the Reign of
God in every dimension of life.
?
When Jesus held up that coin and asked whose image do you see? He spoke
proclaimed the God in whose image we are made over the false god who has been
made over in our image.

What is in an image anyway? Lisa brought me a gift from her trip to china that was
a wax seal upon which a person?s individual seal could be put on correspondence
by melting wax on the letter and then placing your seal in the wax. ??

In eras past the Emperor of china could use his official seal to communicate with
his subjects. Seeing the emperor?s seal, they would know for sure that this was the
emperor and that this communication had the authority of the Emperor. What?s in
an image?

Think of it this way: The image of the Sovereign Creator is imprinted on each one
of us, the daughters and sons of God made in God?s image, like a seal pressed
into wax.

But a false god is one who has been made in our image.

Jesus was implying that no one should turn that around and by his or her own
image claim to be God. We owe our creation to God, as we are made in God?s
image.

We owe our new creation to God, who in Christ remakes us and restores us. This
passage goes deeper than the ethical question of whether we should pay our
taxes, but who we worship in our daily lives.

Will we live out allegiance to the state, the economy, the mass media,
consumerism, status-driven values and wealth?

Or will we live out our allegiance to living God, and to God?s reign: the new
community of upside-down kingdom values, which is the source of hope and
transformation. May we choose this day and always the Holy Generous Living God
in whose image we are made.

http://www.stmarkspresbyterian.org/stmarks/sermons/16oct05.htm

22. Again note II Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV):

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may
be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Reading Deuteronomy 11:28 (KJV):

And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but
turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods,
which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 12:32 (KJV):

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto,
nor diminish from it.

Exodus 34:14-15 (KJV):

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a
jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and
they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call
thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

It is clear enough that Christians are obliged to worship only Yahweh, and not
worship (and so not 'render' to) caesar. Because one cannot serve two masters.

Matthew 6:24 (KJV):

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other;
or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and
mammon.

Luke 16:13 (KJV):

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the
other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God
and mammon.

Robert Banks and R. Paul Stevens discuss Principalities and Powers (and Mammon):

"A stunning example of how the inner and outer realities of a power are
intertwined and inseparable is the case of money. Mammon is an alternative god;
the name Mammon in Aramaic comes from the word Amen, which means firmness
or stability. It is not surprising that a common English phrase is ?the almighty
dollar.? As Jacques Ellul (pp. 76-77, 81, 93) shows, wealth has some of the
pretended claims of deity:

(1) it is capable of moving other things and claims a certain autonomy;
(2) it is invested with spiritual power that can enslave us, replacing single-minded
love for God and neighbor with commercial relationships in which even the soul is
bought (Rev. 18:11-13);
(3) it is more or less personal. So money, ?unrighteous mammon? (Luke 16:9 RSV),
is a form or appearance of another power (Ephes. 1:21)."

http://www.ivmdl.org/cbec.cfm?study=10

23. For one who is aware of the verses contained in the Word of God, why are you
shocked? The reality is how it is.

Again note II Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV):

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may
be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

24. Your defence of the ACLU is most enthusiastic. Multi-culturalism does not
work at all well in the long run. For whatever the reason, one culture tends to
dominate the others.

Where's the equality in that?

The reality is, we are equal before God, and every one of us is unique, though
none of us is exactly equal in composition, capabilities, or achievements.

Men will never be equal to women. Women will never be equal to men. The rich
will never be equal to the poor, and the poor will never be equal to the rich. The
wise, knowlegeable, and intelligent will never be equal to the unintelligent,
ignorant, and foolish. They're just not the same in composition, capabilities or
achievements.

In your 'system', should someone rich be made poor? Should someone wise,
knowledgeable and intelligent be dumbed down and made foolish? Should women
be turned into men?

Most would agree with 'of course not'.

So why the fixation upon 'equality'?

25. In your critique of the list I related from http://www.dms489.com/ACLU.html
you are again in error in a number assumptions:

Quote

Halt the singing of Christmas Carols in public facilities.
Key word there: ?public.? As in paid for by the Government. As in paid for by the
taxes of everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike. Would you like it if the
government used your money to pay to have Islamic or Satanist festivals in public
places? Fair?s fair.

(et al) Unquote

If the government is funded by the public, and Christians are members of the
public, then carol singing in public facilities is likely to bring cheer and is a good
thing.

The truth is Government (as you put it) do not fund anything. They either tax
others, or borrow from banks. Perhaps the conditions of loans include policy
changes to the cultural landscape?

It has been some time since a government funded (actually created the credit or
money itself for) anything.

Grants or tax concessions are available to others (including other religions).

And as previously discussed (please read the sermon in full):

"We owe our creation to God, as we are made in God?s image. We owe our new
creation to God, who in Christ remakes us and restores us. This passage goes
deeper than the ethical question of whether we should pay our taxes, but who we
worship in our daily lives. Will we live out allegiance to the state, the economy, the
mass media, consumerism, status-driven values and wealth? Or will we live out
our allegiance to living God, and to God?s reign: the new community of upside-
down kingdom values, which is the source of hope and transformation. May we
choose this day and always the Holy Generous Living God in whose image we are
made."

http://www.stmarkspresbyterian.org/stmarks/sermons/16oct05.htm

Quote
? Remove all military chaplains.
Not familiar with this one. Cite?
Unquote

Regarding military chaplains and prayer in military institutions or facilities:

"First Principles, the Coalition of American Veterans and the Naval Aviation
Foundation filed Amici, friend of the court briefs, on July 16, 2002, in the Fourth
Circuit Court of Appeals supporting the Virginia Military Institute (VMI) in the case
filed by the American Civil Liberties Union in May 2001, on behalf of two VMI
cadets objecting to the student-led prayer before the evening meal."

http://www.firstprinciplespress.org/pages/aclu_v.htm

"On July 11, 2005, the Marine Corps Times announced the Anti-Defamation
League's (ADL's) reissued call to cease the traditional noon-meal prayer at the
Naval Academy, and the Academy's refusal to surrender.

"The ADL's demands echo the April 2003 complaint by the ACLU, which could not
find a plaintiff to pursue a lawsuit.1 However, neither the ACLU nor the Anti-
Defamation League nor the Supreme Court can change the unbroken historic
precedent of leader-led prayer sustaining American fighting men on the
battlefield through every American war. The centrality of prayer for the protection
of "those in peril upon the sea" and acknowledgment of Divine Providence is an
official tenet of the preparation of the American Military, and the Naval Academy
knows too much history to surrender to the attack of the ACLU, B'nai Brith and
their allies."

http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?
id=8828&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

"I'm going to continue my lawsuit against the Navy as a civilian, but will fight to be
reinstated," Klingenschmitt told WND. "I will continue to fight for all chaplains'
rights to pray according to their conscience, but will do so outside of the Navy
instead of inside."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54537

"The debate comes on the heels of

Posted by: smdunn   Posted on: 03/31/07 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use

Alert moderator to an offensive message

Subscribe to this discussion via Email or RSS

SponsoredWhite Papers, Webcasts, and Downloads

• The True Costs of Virtual Server Solutions VMware In an economic environment that is repeatedly heralding the message "do ... Download Now
• The Impact of Virtualization Software on Operating Environments VMware Today's use of virtualization technology allows IT professionals to ... Download Now
• Three Steps You Need to Know to Stop Data Loss Varonis Sensitive data exposed to misuse or loss... it is the stuff of nightmares ... Download Now