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Voska and OSreinstall
---I'd like to know who's against this. I'll make sure not to buy thier books as they have so much to hide.---

No publisher is against this idea. What they're against is someone else controlling it. Publishers all see this as a means to sell more books--a good thing. The problem, as they see it, is that Google is going to make a ton of money from selling ads, using their content. They don't like that idea, and feel they should be paid if their content is being used to sell ads. Note that there's already a group of publishers building their own version of this search:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588-5909533.html

Osreinstall:
You still haven't addressed the question of web search engines. MSN Search, Yahoo, and Google all scan entire copyrighted websites, cache the entire text and show snippets when you search (often multiple snippets from the same site). Should all web search engines be opt-in as well?

One other question--what if the exact same service existed, but they didn't show the snippets, just a ranking of books that contained the particular term of interest? Do you think that would be legal fair use? No text would be given up at all.
Posted by: tic swayback   Posted on: 10/24/05 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use
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Hey Google, look over shoulder at tv screen  Boot_Agnostic | 10/24/05
Nice Idea, but good Lord I hope Google loses...  critique | 10/24/05
If Google wins  voska | 10/24/05
That's exactly what Google is doing  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Very Well Said  thirstydog@... | 10/25/05
My only problem with this  rapson | 10/24/05
Which is why it's funny...  tic swayback | 10/24/05
I knew that was coming  rapson | 10/24/05
But it's such a great setup line!  tic swayback | 10/24/05
I see a difference  rapson | 10/24/05
Is there a difference?  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Well...  rapson | 10/25/05
It's up to a judge to decide  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Can't see the forest for the trees  NobodyHome | 10/24/05
However  IT Scion | 10/24/05
The libraries gave permission  voska | 10/24/05
But...  Yensi717 | 10/24/05
I don't get your point  voska | 10/24/05
Google is NOT a library. The libray can not remove copyright.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/24/05
Google doesn't have to be  voska | 10/24/05
The library is irrelevant. Perhaps, so is copyright  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Don't forget Proxy servers  voska | 10/24/05
Excerpting  bhartman36 | 10/24/05
The libraries are not the copyright holders.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Your statement about Fair Use is not factually correct.  Root User | 10/24/05
When they use the indexing argument it will weigh against Google.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
I'd like to see an example...  Root User | 10/24/05
Don't worry I will come across one.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Why is that so wrong  voska | 10/24/05
Voska and OSreinstall  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Opt-Out Indexing  bhartman36 | 10/24/05
bhartmann--Both are opt out  tic swayback | 10/24/05
This is not going to fly. Unless it is in the 9th circuit.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Osreinstall--quoting your link  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Also Robots.txt does stop it  voska | 10/24/05
Copyright is opt in.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
No, actually, copyright is opt out  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Nice play on words.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Opt In doesn't work  voska | 10/24/05
Opting isn't going to work anyway.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Of couse they wouldn't  voska | 10/24/05
Sorry Osreinstall, my mistake  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Google versus Amazon  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Google verses everyone these days.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
I'm surprised Google Ads work at all  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Me too. A lot of people filter this stuff.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Amazon isn't really a "partner"  tic swayback | 10/25/05
They are both.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
If you read the copyright law  voska | 10/24/05
I don't think so.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
You're right on Fair Use  voska | 10/24/05
Think of the consequences.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Interesting point  voska | 10/24/05
And you're wrong on fair use  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Excluding libraries  tic swayback | 10/24/05
It is a free country, Voska  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Nope Tic.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
But because it's a free country...  tic swayback | 10/24/05
They have no choice though  voska | 10/24/05
They'd pay the same price, actually  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Tic, I could sell direct to public like Dell.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Still wouldn't work  tic swayback | 10/24/05
They would pay more.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Yeah and I can already photocopy books  voska | 10/24/05
They wouldn't pay any more than you or I  tic swayback | 10/24/05
they will pay a little more if the libraries are cut off by all publishers.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Again, how would you know?  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Common sense prediction.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
That would be a really stupid business move  tic swayback | 10/25/05
On Content Owners  voska | 10/25/05
Couple replies:  osreinstall | 10/25/05
I don't think you'd ever find 100% consensus  tic swayback | 10/25/05
100% is a difficult goal.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Which is why I think you won' see a boycott  tic swayback | 10/25/05
You are right, Tic...  Root User | 10/25/05
No, a library can NOT waive the copyright for a for profit.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/24/05
Quit Trolling  voska | 10/24/05
I was just going to say that  voska | 10/24/05
Ownership  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Semantics  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Not really. Just more detailed.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Not according to the US Copyright Office  tic swayback | 10/25/05
You must cipher things differently.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
I can't find the server  tic swayback | 10/25/05
I can't find junk at times either.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Right of first sale  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Hmmmmmm.....  osreinstall | 10/25/05
More semantics  tic swayback | 10/26/05
Perhaps  osreinstall | 10/26/05
We're just talking about one particular instance of the content  tic swayback | 10/26/05
That is all it takes to wreck it.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
That one copy is still subject to copyright law  tic swayback | 10/26/05
All copies are.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Amazon  tic swayback | 10/27/05
Re: Amazon  osreinstall | 10/27/05
Did you actually try a search?  tic swayback | 10/27/05
I finally got it  osreinstall | 10/27/05
You see much more than Google  tic swayback | 10/27/05
Not always.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
It's a different program, but...  tic swayback | 10/27/05
Not quite Root.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
I think I am right here.  Root User | 10/26/05
Quick correction...  Root User | 10/26/05
No you are not  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Contradictory answer  tic swayback | 10/26/05
Funny thing is, I have not seen a definition on the copyright office site.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
That's why I think this is a semantic argument  tic swayback | 10/26/05
That's it  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Actually, I know I'm right on this one.  Root User | 10/26/05
I don't think so root  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Semantic agreement?  tic swayback | 10/27/05
Pretty much.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
I wouldn't say it's weak  tic swayback | 10/27/05
And we will find out  osreinstall | 10/27/05
Probably true  tic swayback | 10/27/05
This will be interesting.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
Different purposes  tic swayback | 10/27/05
Nope MS will obtain permission  osreinstall | 10/27/05
I can't see that happening  tic swayback | 10/28/05
I can  osreinstall | 10/28/05
What you're missing in the big picture  tic swayback | 10/24/05
See that's the funny thing  voska | 10/24/05
That's exactly the plan  tic swayback | 10/24/05
I disagree  Trevor_G | 10/25/05
Project Gutenberg is entirely Public Domain  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Opt out?  IT Scion | 10/24/05
I don't agree  voska | 10/24/05
IMO  IT Scion | 10/24/05
Same  voska | 10/24/05
What about Yahoo, MSN Search or Ask Jeeves?  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Another perspective  MoonTwist | 10/24/05
The other side of the issue  Roger Ramjet | 10/24/05
Excellent suggestion  rapson | 10/24/05
Problem: Copyright extensions (and Fair Use)  Root User | 10/24/05
Good idea if you're not in the US  voska | 10/24/05
Google is doing this  tic swayback | 10/24/05
I read it was life +90  voska | 10/24/05
It's complicated  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Tree-Huggers for Googleizing Books (THGB)  Pye_z | 10/24/05
Google is a for-profit company, they will lose this one.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/24/05
I'm not sure...  rapson | 10/24/05
Google is doing it to make a buck, plain and simple.  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/24/05
Well, as you like to say...  rapson | 10/24/05
Do you feel the same way about search engines?  tic swayback | 10/24/05
There is no fear of lawsuit.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
One would hope not  voska | 10/24/05
What if I start one?  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Fair use rulings are subjective.  osreinstall | 10/24/05
Replace a few words there  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Google cannot spider a website that is password protected  osreinstall | 10/24/05
We've had it happen to us  tic swayback | 10/25/05
OSreistall, That's what I've been saying  voska | 10/25/05
Plus...  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Because you let it, Tic  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Both are opt out systems. Why is one okay, but not the other?  tic swayback | 10/25/05
How much income must the creative ones lose?  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Rapson was right, everything should be opt in  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Copyright is opt out  voska | 10/25/05
Copyright is opt in  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Two responses, Osreinstall  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Some more back at you.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Websites do not want to be free then  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Contridiction City.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Oh what a tangled web....  tic swayback | 10/25/05
Cobbed to the max.  osreinstall | 10/25/05
Business models on the catwalk  tic swayback | 10/26/05
More like a tightrope.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Not good enough  tic swayback | 10/26/05
Internet never was.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
I can't live without it  tic swayback | 10/26/05
I am getting to that point.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Well, maybe not everyone happy  tic swayback | 10/26/05
There are always a few miserable holdouts.  osreinstall | 10/26/05
Mutual respect  tic swayback | 10/27/05
That would be a good start.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
That'll take another court ruling  tic swayback | 10/27/05
And so on and on.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
Not always  tic swayback | 10/27/05
I would fight it.  osreinstall | 10/27/05
A lack of confidence  tic swayback | 10/28/05
Greed vs Principal  osreinstall | 10/28/05
Profit is not a disqualifier  tic swayback | 10/24/05
Questions  Pye_z | 10/24/05
RIAA Redux?  Rodney Davis | 10/24/05
Except this isn't about a new revenue stream  voska | 10/24/05
Don't have to sell the book to make money  Rodney Davis | 10/25/05
Authors weigh in  tic swayback | 10/25/05
"One copy out there is enough to destroy the economic value of a work ..."  markbn | 02/28/06

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