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Road Scholar = bonehead

Dear Spoon Jabber, if you don't know your history how can you purport to think for yourself and speak factually? Below I show that the Soviets won the war in Afganistan in 8 days. You seem to think it took them 10 years and us three months. Thus both the US and the Soviets won the war in Afghanistan rather quickly. What the Soviets lost is the peace. Afghanistan today is showing every sign of being as recalcitrant to our occupation as it was to the Soviet occupation.


Your challange: Your post is, coincidently, nearly identical to the rubbish spewed by Kerry in the last debate. Ever try thinking for yourself? I will try to address some of your incorrect "facts" though.

Reply - Your breathing of air is, coincidently, nearly identical to the air all humans breath. Ever try breathing other gases? Sue me for agreeing with Kerry when I look at the world and independently come to my own conclusions. Am I farce for agreeing with the laws of physics promulagated by centuries of experimentally supported results?

When I ask if you buy President's Bush argument that 9/11 and the stock market crash of 2001 is a good excuse for a net loss of jobs, citing the fact that 9/11 is smallish versus WW2 or Korea or Vietnam, you ask if I'm really that dumb and state that NONE of those involved a direct hit to our financial center nor opened with 3000 lost lives nor involved attacks on our own soil nor were they coupled with a stock market crash. If history serves, we lost 2,403 people during the 7 Dec. 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor AND 188 warplanes AND 8 damaged or sunk destroyers and battleships. As for that war (WWII) being coupled to the market and crashing: As the news got worse in the war, markets gradually declined throughout 1941, and when Pearl Harbor was attacked, the market declined around 10% in the next two weeks. The market bottomed in April 1942, and moved up after that for the rest of the war as the war moved in the favor of the Allies. In 1998 the DOW crossed 10,000 on its way up. It's late in 2004 and the DOW sits below 10,000. So too are the Nasdaq and other markets below their 1998 values. Under Bush's watch, the markets are clearly behaving poorly relative to their historic decline from Dec. 41 thru April 42, only to rise again. In WW II it took 4.5 months for the markets to rebound from 7 Dec 1941. What the hell is going on now? The markets haven't risen since 11 Sep. 2001 NOR since dipshit Bush declared victory in Iraq in May of 2003. If the markets mearsure economic expectations and health, I say President Bush hasn't done to well for the US economy.

You state: 3)The first President Bush didn't invade Iraq because he knew there was no viable exit strategy. Here is a more complete description of things from the first President Bush--including the issues of no exit strategy AND ending up stuck in a bitterly hostile land: From George H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft, A World Transformed (1998), pp. 489-90:

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

Istated: 4)The Soviets got their asses kicked in nearby Afghanistan not too long ago. You rebutted with: Yes, for 10 years, and we cleaned house in what, 3 months? Russia cannot compare to the US.

I reply the Soviets put us to shame in winning the war, BUT then like our Vietnam, ultimately lost the so-called peace. Here is the timeline of their invasion of Afganistan (putting our own invasion to shame)

# December 21, 1979 - A reinforced Soviet airborne regiment is airlifted to Bagram.
# December 22, 1979 - Soviet advisors to the Armed Forces of Afghanistan, advise the Afghan's to undergo maintenance cycles for tanks and other crucial equipment. Telecommunications links to areas outside of Kabul are severed, isolating the capital. Amin moves the offices of the president to the Dar-ul-aman Palace, believing this location to be more defensible during invasion.
# December 24, 1979 - Three Soviet division-sized units take control of all airfields in and around Kabul. Spetnaz commandos seize control of the telecommunications complex in Kabul, controlling all intra-city communication.
# December 26, 1979 - Additional Soviet regiment and division-sized units move southward toward the Afghan border.
# December 27, 1979 - Soviet interior advisors host a party for Afghan government officials at the Intercontinental Hotel, at its conclusion all are arrested. Soviet military advisers host a party for their Afghan counterparts, at its conclusion all are imprisoned. Three Soviet battalions attack the palace where Amin is located; the palace is taken with heavy casualties.
# December 28, 1979 - Three additional Soviet motorized rifle divisions cross the Afghan border, supported by four reserve divisions in the Southern Soviet Union, just across the border.
# December 29, 1979 - Babrak Karmal, leader of the Parcham faction of the PDPA appoints himself President and Prime Minister of the DRA, and General Secretary of the PDPA. Over 50,000 Soviet troops occupy Afghanistan. If history serves, we too will likely get our asses kicked over there.

As for Iraq--in which we are currently conducting air raids as the Brits did years back--here is some history of British defeat that sounds much like today's events.

1919

Throughout 1919 and 1920 there are constant risings in northern Iraq, with British military officers and officials being killed. The different tribes in this area share a common Kurdish language and culture, but at this stage there is little demand for a separate Kurdish nation state. The issue is rather resistance to any external state authority.

The RAF bomb Kurdish areas. Wing-Commander Arthur Harris (later known as "Bomber Harris" for his role in the destruction of Dresden in World War Two) boasts: "The Arab and the Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within 45 minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured".

Colonel Gerald Leachman, a leading British officer declares that the only way to deal with the tribes is "wholesale slaughter". The RAF Middle Eastern Command request chemical weapons to use "against recalcitrant Arabs as (an) experiment". Winston Churchill, Secretary of State for War comments "I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.. It is not necessary only to use the most deadly gases: gases can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects of most of those affected". Others argue that the suggested gas would in fact "kill children and sickly persons" and permanently damage eyesight. At this stage, technical problems prevent the use of gas, but later it is deployed.

1920

In the post-war carve up of the spoils of conquest between the victorious imperialist powers, Britain gets Iraq (as well as Palestine), France gets Syria and Lebanon. The borders of the new state of Iraq are set by the great powers, setting the scene for a century of border conflicts (e.g the Iran/Iraq war).

The British authorities impose tight controls, collecting taxes more rigorously than their predecessors and operating forced labour schemes. In June 1920 an armed revolt against British rule ("the Revolution of 1920") spreads across southern and central Iraq. For three months Britain loses control of large areas of the countryside. British military posts are overrun, and 450 British troops are killed (1500 are injured).

1921

By February the rebellion has been crushed, with 9000 rebels killed or wounded by British forces. Whole villages are destroyed by British artillery, and suspected rebels shot without trial. The air power of the RAF plays a major role; what this involves is shown by one report of "an air raid in which men, women and children had been machine gunned as they fled from a village".

Britain decides to replace direct colonial rule with an Arab administration which it hopes will serve British interests. At the head of the new state structure, Britain creates a monarchy with Faysal as Iraq's first King. Although senior positions are now filled by Iraqis, ultimate control remains with their British advisers'.

1924

Britain's Labour Government sanctions the use of the RAF against the Kurds, dropping bombs and gas, including on Sulliemania in December. The effects are described by Lord Thompson as "appalling" with panic stricken tribespeople fleeing "into the desert where hundreds more must have perished of thirst".

1927

The British-controlled Iraq Petroleum Company (successor to the TPC) opens its first substantial oil well at Baba Gurgur, north of Kirkuk. Tons of oil decimate the local countryside before the well is capped.

1930

The Anglo-Iraq Treaty paves the way for independence. However the Treaty provides for Britain to maintain two air bases, and for British influence on Iraq's foreign policy until 1957. In negotiations the British government contends that Kuwait "is a small expendable state which could be sacrificed without too much concern if the power struggles of the period demanded it".

Kurdish uprisings, prompted by fears of their place in the new state, are put down with the help of the RAF.

1931

General strike against the Municipal Fees Law which imposes draconian new taxes (three times heavier than before) and for unemployment compensation. Thousands of workers and artisans, including 3,000 petroleum workers, take part and there are clashes with the police. The RAF flies over urban centres to intimidate strikers and their supporters.

1932

Iraq is admitted to the League of Nations, becoming formally independent - although Britain remains in a powerful influence.

1933

The Artisans Association' (a union) organise a month long boycott of the British-owned Baghdad Electric Light and Power Company. After this, unions and workers' organisations are banned and forced underground for the next ten years with their leaders imprisoned.

King Faysal dies and is succeeded by his son Ghazi.

1934

Iraq Petroleum Company begins commercial export of oil from the Kirkuk fields.

1935-36

Sporadic tribal rebellions, mainly in the south of the country. Causes include the government's attempt to introduce conscription (the focus of a revolt by the minority Yazidi community), the dispossession of peasants as tribally-owned lands are placed in private hands, and the decreasing power of tribal leaders. The revolts are crushed by air force bombing and summary executions.

1936-37

General Bakr Sidqi, an admirer of Mussolini installs a military government and launches repression against the left. There are protest strikes throughout the country including at the Iraq Petroleum Company in Kirkuk and at the National Cigarette Factory in Baghdad.

1939

King Ghazi is killed in a car crash. Many Iraqis believe that there has been a conspiracy, as the King had become outspokenly anti-British. During an angry demonstration in Mosul, the British Consul is killed.

1940

Rashid Ali becomes Prime Minister after a coup, at the expense of pro-British politicians. The new government takes a position of neutrality in the Second World War, refusing to support Britain unless it grants independence to British-controlled Syria and Palestine. Links are established with the German government.

1941

British troops land at Basra. The Iraqi government demands that they leave the country. Instead Britain re-invades Iraq and after the thirty days war' restores its supporters to power. During the British occupation, martial law is declared. Arab nationalist leaders are hanged or imprisoned, with up to 1000 being interned without trial. Despite this, British forces do not intervene when Rashid supporters stage a pogrom in the Jewish area of Baghdad, killing 150 Jews.

1943

Bread strikes prompted by food shortages and prices rises are put down by the police.

1946

Strike by oil workers at the British-controlled Iraq Petroleum Company in Kirkuk demanding higher wages and other benefits. Workers clash with police, and ten are killed when police open fire on a mass meeting on 12 July. The following month there is a strike by oil workers in the Iranian port of Abadan and Britain moves more troops to Basra (near to the Iranian border). The Iraqi government suppresses opposition papers criticising this move, prompting strikes by the printers and railway workers. The cabinet is forced to resign.

1946-47

Strikes and demonstrations against the proposed establishment of the Zionist state of Israel at the expense of the dispossessed Palestinians.

1948

The Iraqi government negotiates a new treaty with Britain which would have extended Britain's say in military policy until 1973. British troops would be withdrawn from Iraqi soil, but would have the right to return in event of war. On January 16, the day after the Treaty is agreed at Portsmouth, police shoot dead four students on a demonstrations against the treaty. This prompts an uprising that becomes known as al-Wathba (the leap). Militant demonstrations and riots spread across the country, directed not just against the proposed Treaty but against bread shortages and rising prices. Several more people are killed a few days later when police open fire on a mass march of railway workers and slum dwellers. On 27 January 300 to 400 people are killed by the police and military as demonstrators erect barricades of burning cars in the street. The cabinet resigns and the Treaty is repudiated.

In May 3000 workers at IPC's K3 pumping station near Haditha strike for higher wages bringing the station to a halt. After two and a half weeks, the government and IPC cut off supplies of food and water to the strikers, who then decide to march on Baghdad, 250 km away. On what becomes known as the great march' (al-Masira al-Kubra), strikers are fed and sheltered by people in the small towns and villages en route before being arrested at Fallujah, 70 km from Baghdad.

The British military mission is withdrawn from Iraq.

So, BTW, will you try to re-write history?

Posted by: akalaniz1   Posted on: 10/15/04 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use

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