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At least it is a new argument!
Thanks for that!

Defending Windows computers is a pretty big industry in itself.

The question is: how successful has that industry been? Considering that anti-malware is, by definition, a reactive defense, it is flawed by design. It might be a big industry but that doesn't mean it is terribly successful at doing what it set out to do. I won't even mention that the adoption rate is less than 100% although that too would make an interesting stat: what % of Windows users have up-to-date anti-malware running on their machines?

Now take the Mac and Linux worlds. You have ... ? There is no similar industry defending Mac and Linux computers.

That technically isn't true. Symantec has anti-virus for Mac although their DAT file can't be very big!! However, does this mean that OSX and Linux are naturally better able to withstand the type of attacks that Windows faces every day? No. If you were to look at the % of Rhode Islanders who wear body armor (0.01%?) and compare it to the % of US soldiers in Iraq who wear body armor (100%?), you would conclude that Rhode Islanders must have much tougher skin than soldiers! This would be a verifiable claim and one that would likely prove false. happy

There still are a couple hundred million Mac/Linux machines out there surfing the web

1. You think so? If the combined marketshare between OSX and Linux is less than 10%, that would mean that there are a couple billion Windows machines surfing the web. I'll be honest, I don't know if your 200 million number is accurate but it sounds wrong to me. And if there were 2,000,000,000 Windows machines out there, you are admitting that malware isn't a very big problem, % wise, for Windows machines.

2. You can't combine them and say they are a big target together because the "bad guys" would likely have to write attacks that are individualized for the platform. You then have the problem that "Linux" itself isn't a homogenous platform. These are good things for defense but they don't really counter the marketshare argument.

3. Even if you want to ignore points 1. and 2., you are looking at the situation like an oil field. Once an oil field is tapped, it can't be tapped again by rival oil companies. In that case, it makes sense for the rival oil companies to look at other oil fields, even if they happen to be smaller. Computers can be "tapped" multiple times. While there may be 200,000,000 untapped OSX/Linux computers, there are effectively 2,000,000,000 untapped Windows computers. If you can only go after one of them with a random, mass attack, which would you pick?

I highlighted the words random, mass attack because that is also relevant. If you look at targetted attacks, Linux doesn't fare so well, especially the "L" portion of LAMP. However, random, mass attack rely on large numbers: the larger the better. Hence, Windows is the target. I've said this before and I'll say it again: marketshare isn't as much a factor as it is a requirement. That point is usually lost on people though.

In raw numbers, that's enough to make a botmaster drool.

If that was the case, I actually think the fact that there have been no attempts to be interesting. There are thousands of exploits targetting Windows that don't rely on any vulnerability. When anti-malware started scanning zipped email attachments, there were even attempts involving password protected zip email attachments with instructions on how to unzip the attachment in the body of the email!! This would require so many human steps to execute that any "Windows makes it too easy to run attachments" argument moot. The point is that the malware guys are a creative and desperate bunch yet they haven't even tried attacking those two hundred million machines? If they really were drooling over it, you don't think they would have even tried? There are old Windows vulnerabilities that are constantly attacked. You don't think they would have even tried to attack even 1 old OSX/Linux vulnerability? It simply isn't worth it because there is no downside to attacking the OS with, not just the largest marketshare, but the only OS with more than a miniscule marketshare. If Linux had 40% and Windows had 60%, I wouldn't defend someone who said Linux would have 40% of the exploits. As I said above, marketshare is a requirement more than it is a factor. However, are you willing to suggest that a Linux with 40% marketshare would still have no in the wild exploits?
Posted by: NonZealot   Posted on: 10/26/06 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use
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Zombies continue to chase Windows PCs  Loverock Davidson | 10/24/06
Message has been deleted.  jasonp@... | 10/25/06
You do have a good point.  Anton Philidor | 10/25/06
Well  Patrick Jones | 10/25/06
re: Well  none none | 10/25/06
BRAVO!!!  itanalyst | 10/25/06
Insults  Loverock Davidson | 10/25/06
His opinion isn't wrong Lovey  Shelendrea | 10/25/06
Oh no!  Linux User 1 | 10/25/06
...........  Shelendrea | 10/25/06
Thankfully that doesn't concern you  Hrothgar - PCLinuxOS User | 10/25/06
It doesn't?  Loverock Davidson | 10/25/06
As long as there is windows there will be zombies  bdg_z | 10/24/06
CORRECTION : PCs Not Windows  savatar | 10/25/06
Running as root?  DarthRidiculous | 10/25/06
INCORRECT Correction - It is Windows  msolgeek | 10/25/06
Incorrect correction to the correction  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Completely cluelss Zealot  msolgeek | 10/25/06
WHen you lose a debate, call names and rant  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/25/06
You do that so often  zkiwi | 10/25/06
Which you have so aptly demonstrated  Linux User 147560 | 10/25/06
So you lose a lot of debates?  B.O.F.H. | 10/25/06
Not so Bitty  msolgeek | 10/25/06
Exactly  FatherJ | 10/26/06
Hehe, you funny!  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Wrong again Zealot...  msolgeek | 10/25/06
Poor msolgeek  NonZealot | 10/25/06
MSOLgeek . . .  jlhenry62 | 10/25/06
Re; Hehe, you funny!  none none | 10/25/06
At least it is a new argument!  NonZealot | 10/26/06
Do you even know what a botnet is?  zkiwi | 10/25/06
Incorrect correction to the incorrectly corrected correction which is right  nomorems | 10/25/06
Linux Zombies?  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
That may be the funniest post EVER  FatherJ | 10/26/06
Was it just me that had a picture of Steve Ballmer come to mind  Richard Flude | 10/24/06
Fight Fire with FIre  Suicida| | 10/24/06
Trojans  jdyagi | 10/25/06
Message has been deleted.  opensourcepro | 10/25/06
Link...  ddagolfr | 10/25/06
MSFT's solution...  Chad_z | 10/25/06
Will it ever end?  ahinkle | 10/25/06
I'm curious about another stat  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Straw man.  enduser_z | 10/25/06
Incorrect assumptions?  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Well, there have been more than a few worms and other malware  zkiwi | 10/25/06
Do you know what a worm is?  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Sure do!  Linux User 147560 | 10/25/06
re: sure do!  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
Keep dancing...  enduser_z | 10/25/06
Oh, I feel bad for you  NonZealot | 10/25/06
So which one works like you say "most" do?  enduser_z | 10/25/06
Review the definition of a trojan  NonZealot | 10/25/06
No need to.  enduser_z | 10/25/06
Come on, you like to dance!  NonZealot | 10/26/06
Ever heard of Happy99?  FatherJ | 10/26/06
The exception that proves the rule?  enduser_z | 10/26/06
Oops  FatherJ | 10/26/06
I don't think we are far apart on this one.  enduser_z | 10/26/06
I think you will find that the 4 mill.  zkiwi | 10/25/06
Read the article  NonZealot | 10/25/06
Ok  zkiwi | 10/25/06
That's okay  NonZealot | 10/25/06
One thing..  Patrick Jones | 10/25/06
He wasn't being serious.  enduser_z | 10/25/06
I'm still waiting  NonZealot | 10/25/06
explanation - anyone on Linux is slightly geeky, so more aware! (nt)  Castanet | 10/25/06
Re: I'm still waiting  none none | 10/26/06
Point by point  NonZealot | 10/26/06
Re: Point by point  none none | 10/26/06
You countered your own conclusion.  FatherJ | 10/26/06
Thank you  NonZealot | 10/26/06
I think it does....  FatherJ | 10/26/06
Re: You countered your own conclusion.  none none | 10/26/06
Name some  FatherJ | 10/27/06
What is malware?  Anton Philidor | 10/25/06
A more important distinction is...  John L. Ries | 10/25/06
It was obviously a joke.  enduser_z | 10/25/06
Anton!  Linux User 147560 | 10/25/06
Heads up!  John L. Ries | 10/25/06
Locking the barn after the horses have left  cdgoldin | 10/25/06
no firewall? - and turn of auto update  Castanet | 10/25/06
Unfortunately...  DarbyOhara | 10/25/06
Someone call George Romero  Shelendrea | 10/25/06
Zombie windows to everyone  mmowens@... | 10/25/06
Good one!!  Linux User 147560 | 10/25/06
Sure, that's a good one...  Generalist | 10/25/06
Making money is the goal  NonZealot | 10/25/06
The answer to that would be  Shelendrea | 10/25/06
Naaahhh . . .  jlhenry62 | 10/25/06
Is that worth more?  NonZealot | 10/25/06
How would you submit an invoice for that?  FatherJ | 10/26/06
Read the last paragraph  Fujikid2 | 10/26/06
Like anyone would bother to wriute malware for  No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/25/06
More importantly...  NonZealot | 10/25/06
It depends..  Patrick Jones | 10/25/06
Users are to blame  Guy Fawkes | 10/25/06
That's right  Shelendrea | 10/25/06
I may be wrong  zkiwi | 10/25/06
how do they update 98, me, 2000, NT?  Hrothgar - PCLinuxOS User | 10/25/06
Don't pass the buck  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
Part of the blame goes to lenient ISPs  wdlists@... | 10/25/06
I agree completely  kmatzen@... | 10/25/06
One bit  brian ansorge | 10/25/06
Zombie and other Malware Makers Should Be In Jail  ThomasLN | 10/25/06
Agree  spdrcrtob | 10/25/06
Corporate greed?  cdgoldin | 10/25/06
disagree  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
Trouble is............  peeseebeeb@... | 10/26/06
rationalism vs. empiricism....  handydan918 | 10/25/06
I agree  NonZealot | 10/25/06
However much we agree or disagree,  handydan918 | 10/26/06
"Windows doesn't" ?  FatherJ | 10/27/06
So, what do I do now?  trm1945 | 10/25/06
life in prison without parole for malware creators.  case42tlc | 10/25/06
Prison?  Castanet | 10/25/06
would normally agree  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
From a developers perspective.  Fujikid2 | 10/26/06
about sums it up!  crayolakidd | 10/26/06
but let's face it, who the hell would even bother writing a virus for Macs  trm1945 | 10/26/06
And your definition of "return" is?  zkiwi | 10/26/06
And they will as long as it makes money!  HexHammer67 | 10/26/06
Oh well, so much for an OSS Virus.  trm1945 | 10/26/06

What do you think?

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