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Good points, and I agree with you ...
... on most of them, on condition that we understand that we are using the same definition of "freedom" in the context of our discussion.

When I paraphrased Ben Franklin, I was using a definition of "freedom" which means to not be restrained by arbitrary or despotic control (one of the definitions of "liberty," the word Franklin used and another word with problematic definitions).

Using that definition of freedom, my argument CAN'T be turned around because, by its nature, there are specific conditions where that type of freedom is threatened, where it amounts to us being like animals in a zoo: we're there because of the power of the zoo keepers to KEEP us there, regardless of our desire to NOT be there (the definition, by the way, of "despot"). See?

I am in NO way ambivalent about allowing our present, despotic government to collect all of the private information on us that it can in order to "protect" our young people and provide them with more "safety" from the pornographers and pedophiles. That is like Esau, in the Bible, selling his birthright for a mass of pottage. My freedom, under the specific definition that I am using, is too dear.
Posted by: Judas I.   Posted on: 06/16/05 You are currently: a Guest | Members login | Terms of Use

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And here is where I cry rights violation  nucrash | 06/16/05
I think it has Homeland Security  ebrke | 06/16/05
Ben Franklin Quote  bhartman36 | 06/16/05
REread that again...  Joe Blow_z | 06/16/05
Material  bhartman36 | 06/16/05
Not necessarily legal  deadgoat | 06/18/05
Good Point  bhartman36 | 06/18/05
Actually, Ben said this many times, in many different ways.  Judas I. | 06/16/05
Freedom vs. Security  bhartman36 | 06/16/05
Good points, and I agree with you ...  Judas I. | 06/16/05
Arbitrary or Despotic Control  bhartman36 | 06/17/05
Once again, I agree with you, but ...  Judas I. | 06/17/05
Individualism and Freedom  heeltap26 | 06/23/05
Benjamin Franklin  Joe Blow_z | 06/16/05
The quote works anyway  Protector | 06/16/05
Is there a liberty that's not essential?  bhartman36 | 06/16/05
start thinking  Protector | 06/17/05
Freedom with Responsibility  osreinstall | 06/17/05
Essential Freedoms  bhartman36 | 06/17/05
if the terrorist get us to give up our freedoms  JasonL31 | 06/18/05
How the Terrorists Win  bhartman36 | 06/18/05
I don't want to pay for this  Protector | 06/16/05
GW Bush's ISP Log  itanalyst | 06/16/05
good stuff  r7di697 | 06/17/05
FOor my good please set cameras at my home...  FirstNLastN | 06/16/05
if you don't know what you're doing....  pesky_z | 06/16/05
Get a warrant  Spats30 | 06/16/05
they want to bypass warrants  JasonL31 | 06/18/05
Your ISP as a Net watchdog - It's 1984 d?j? vu.  csagnard | 06/16/05
I guess IBM wasn't the only thing sold to China  BitTwiddler | 06/16/05
Intriguing reading for you................  btljooz | 06/16/05
No it doesn't  osreinstall | 06/16/05
Jeez  r7di697 | 06/17/05
ISP record retention  TeddyC_z | 06/17/05
This is a pathetic attempt to be a big brother  Been_Done_Before | 06/17/05
Proxy servers, etc.  bhartman36 | 06/17/05
VPN would take off  JasonL31 | 06/18/05
Re: Once again, I agree with you, but (from OButterball)  bhartman36 | 06/17/05
'Undernets' will spring up everywhere...  Colonel_Panic | 06/17/05
exactly - this would not effect terrorist  JasonL31 | 06/18/05
Too many lawyers surf porn, this SCREAMS civil rights...  Colonel_Panic | 06/17/05
if the terrorist get us to give up our freedom  JasonL31 | 06/18/05
wrong terrorist will use old fasion bbs style comunication  JasonL31 | 06/18/05

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