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1. Feast for free with your old PC
pjotr123 - 03/09/09
Luckily the software side is not gloomy at all: you can still write lots of blogs about pumping free steroids in that old PC.
Shock-and-awe your readers by diving into www.distrowatch.com ! Unleash the bits and bytes. 
Have fun, Pjotr.
2. It was lack of disposable income
GuidingLight - 03/09/09
that helped kick start the homebrew industry, too.
If you could not afford the 3000 dollar system 20 years ago, the 1000 dollar system started you off.
As the money came in, so did the newer, better graphics cards, Hard Drives, sound cards, et cetera.
My current system is "Homebrewed", but with the changes in card slots among others, It might make sense to just purchase a new PC with everything I need, as I cannot see something I can build that would be less expensive.
2.1. Margins
jperlow - 03/09/09
It is ironic that the industry that caused the PC revolution to explode is now imploding.
With margins on OEM parts so low, it's difficult to piece together a system using the "white box" method that would give me equivalent warranty and functionality that a value priced name brand Tier-1 system purchased from a discount store would give me, with a few extra parts here and there purchased 3rd party.
2.1.1. Well . . .
CobraA1 - 03/09/09
I kinda disagree - for one thing, I don't think system builders are generally concerned with warranties anyways. After all, if you know how to build a system, you also know how to replace defective parts.
I don't think many system builders are really in the resale business, either - they're usually doing it for themselves, not for other people. Sure, some do it for others, but I don't think they are the majority.
2.1.2. Hmmm
DiZastur - 03/10/09
I don't find it difficult at all. I have always designed custom builds for friends, co-workers and for myself. With a little research it's easy to build a reliable system tailored to specific needs and budget, using inexpensive, but compatible and reliable parts. Once upon a time I worked as a tech in a fair sized retail shop. The percentage of "problem child" brand systems that came back was considerably higher than that of the custom builds. I'd rather design a system where warranty and RMA policy aren't as significant and likely to be needed. I very rarely have to RMA anything I've built.
2.1.3. Except a home brew is more likely to work...
BillDem - 07/02/09
Every time I bite the bullet and buy a name brand system, I get burned. They always run like crap. They crash. The bloatware bogs them down. They overheat. I try to replace faulty parts only to find they used non-standard parts which are no longer available. This has happened to me with Dell, Gateway, IBM, HP, and others over the years.
In contrast, all of the PCs I've built myself are STILL running perfectly after many years. Some of them got handed down to friends and family years ago and are STILL running perfectly. The difference is I pick the parts from the Windows HCL, research each to make sure there are no common problems online, and install them very carefully with plenty of cooling.
They will have to drag me kicking and screaming back to buying pre-built machines from online retailers again. I never plan to go back.
HOME BREW LIVES ON!!!
2.1.3.1. Except A Home Brew...
rMatey - 07/02/09
What BillDem said, except he forgot that some warranties on parts might be longer than 12 months and that having the manuals on all of the various parts helps.
2.1.4. I don't really get it.
Cayble - 08/18/09 (Edited: 08/18/09 @ 09:26)
I pass through several computer custom builder stores every month and they are always busy. As busy as before the recession? Well thats hard to say but like most businesses I doubt they are as busy as they were. But none the less, with the constant traffic through the stores and the line ups at the check out counter there is no question they are making money and the custom builder is alive and well.
I don't really get where this notion of custom building going down the tubes is coming from. I am not going to argue whether there has been a modest drop in custom PC building or not; there may well be recent drops in custom building. But it is certainly not to a degree where the industry is anything near being on the verge of folding. From everything I have seen and hear computer sales are down generally and that too is likely a symptom of the recession. Lets not get all wacko about custom building going the way of the dinosaur.
I also fail to see how most custom builders are worried much about warranties. Its never been a concern for me and I have never heard anyone who builds their own PC swear off building another one in the future due to not being able to get a comprehensive warranty. Generally speaking if you built it, theres no reason why you cannot replace a bad part. Further, the custom shops who sell the parts almost always have a faster turn around time doing repairs on PC's then the big manufacturers and big box stores. For most people getting the PC back ASAP is more important then saving the few additional dollars a complete warranty might save you.
Lastly, there is really no replacement for having built your own PC to your own needs and budget. It's the only way to get what you really want for the money you have. Whats makes it even better is that when you build it yourself you usually have a very good idea what and how parts might be upgraded in the future. Working on OEM equipment can be a real pain in many cases and upgrading is not always as easy or practical is working on a custom build which often has features built right into the case design to facilitate easy upgrading of components.
And as far as prices go, from what I have seen its still pretty easy to build a cheaper computer then to shell out the bucks for an off the shelf unit.
All the reasons for custom building your own PC are still alive and well. I certainly don't see any drop in sales significantly askew from the drop in PC sales generally. I suspect that once the recession shakes itself out over the next year or so we will have a much better idea on how the PC custom building business is really going.
2.2. You can still save and get more if you build it yourself
rolnmrbl@... - 03/10/09
I've built 4 computers in the last four months, all for less than $400.00 ea. To buy a comprable off the shelf boxed computer with the same features would have cost $800.00 - $1200.00. Whereas, their not extreme, I built them for less than 1/2 the price I'd have paid Dell or HP.
If I ever decide to build my own "Monster Machine" I am sure I can build it for less than $16,000.00. I bet if I had the specs on that $16000.00 machine I could find the parts for 1/2 or less.
2.2.1. Not Necessarily
ksarkies@... - 03/11/09
My local store sells parts and also puts together a range of standardized and customized systems. One day I added up the cost of parts sourced from the lowest cost stores, and it was exactly what they charged for a built system. Given that they can easily replace a faulty part while I need to RMA it and wait for weeks for its return, why should I bother building?
I do it for servers as it can provide major savings. But that is not the same as extreme PCs. In fact I wonder what you would want with an extreme PC nowadays. Lower cost machines can run the best of games from what I hear. Maybe video compression would benefit from a fast machine, if you need to do it a lot.
2.2.2. Nope
syfr - 03/11/09
I doubt you could come close to buying sub-assemblies for anywhere close to what people who are buying 10,000 qty's are able to purchase them for.
2.2.2.1. Wrong
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
Cost isn't simply about how much you paid up front. A $200 Dell sh*t box may be ~real~ cheap up front...but when you wind up having to replace it every two years because it was slapped together by near slave labor in some foreign country using factory thirds sh*tware...yeah...not so much saving you money in the long run. Not to mention your system will be completely unstable and will constantly crash and lock up due to said sh*t grade hardware. And then of course there's the cost of your time, having a computer that's custom tailored to your specific needs and wants will increase your productivity greatly.
2.2.2.1.1. It is the SAME hardware
jperlow - 03/11/09
Fly out to China or Taiwan and actually watch what goes on in an ISO-9000 certified manufacturing plant. I have. The same hardware which goes into your "Quality" retail boxed parts for your custom rig goes down a different line that ships directly to the OEMs who build systems.
2.2.2.1.1.1. You Really Are Clueless
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
Even if it's the same make and model of hardware it's not all created equal. If you had any idea at all as to how manufacturing works (in any industry) then you would know that there are specific "grades" of quality. Normally, if a company says they want 10,000 of something and they want them uber cheap...well that means they put their machines into over drive, and the faster the machines run, the more screwups they make. And because they're often on a tight deadline they don't bother to correct a lot of obvious screwups, after all, if 5% of a 10,000 unit order doesn't work, well, whose really gonna notice until after the systems are already sold?
And as far as the grading, the highest grade components sell for the highest prices and the lowest grade sell for the cheapest, which is why you see such a variety of prices on different vendor sites, despite the fact that it's all the "same" hardware.
Component costs and sources are another HUGE factor. I remember at one time, back around 1999, when E-machines was having a huge rate of returns on their systems because it turned out that the company who was supplying their power supplies had switched to another, cheaper source for their capacitors, and, well, they were cheap for a reason, and caused the machines to produce this incredibly high pitched squealing sound.
I'm presuming you're a tweenager (or younger), which is why you don't understand this, as any educated adult clearly understands how the manufacturing process works. And of course they recognize that hardware is not just magically farted out by the technology fairy, it's assembled, with individual parts and components coming from a whole variety of often variable sources.
If a company says they want 10,000 of something and they want them uber cheap, well that means the company making them is likely going to go with cheaper distributors for their components, as well as over running their machines and ignoring screwups to meet deadlines.
2.2.2.1.1.1.1. Do not presume or assume
jperlow - 03/11/09
I'm presuming you're a tweenager
Try 40.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/bio.php?id=perlow
http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?page_id=100
2.2.2.1.1.2. These aren't the pieces I purchase.
rdhalsteatzd - 08/15/09
If I build up a system I go for top end processors and graphics. The "big boys" don't make large purchases of parts that would make high priced computers for a very small market. The small margin they run on means they can't afford to purchase 10,000 of the latest top end graphics cards at $400 to $500 each even if they get them for $200 to $300. It's too much money in inventory.
I pay about the same price for parts as the local custom shop. Typically I can assemble a high end machine for notably less than what they sell them for. OTOH If I were selling them I'd have to charge as much or than they do.
However when it comes to entry level or even mid level there is no way an individual or small builder can match the price and include any kind of warranty. That works only with the very top end and pricey machines where the market is small enough that carrying those parts in stock is unwise. They cost too much, you have to pay property tax on inventory, and the biggie, they are outdated in a short time by newer technology that is faster, more capable for the same price or even less.
As for market, the average end use, or even industry for that matter isn't going to use water cooling (although it would make offices quieter), they aren't going to spend $200 or more just for the heavy duty case, and they aren't going to be using top end video cards except for that small few that do graphics on high end work stations. Even then, most mid price range assembly line computers can handle the task.
I think there will always be that element that wants the fastest and most powerful system available and when they economy comes back (eventually) they will be purchasing again. But don't hold your breath, only the government and brokers trying to sell you something are convinced the worst is over. How can it be when the number of employed workers is still going down. They see the rate at which it is going down as a sign of recovery when it shows we haven't hit bottom yet. When employment figures start climbing THEN we can look forward to the return of the SUPER machines.
2.2.2.2. Yep
big red one - 03/11/09
You're wrong. I was specing a PC at Dell, and thought "no way I could build that for what they were charging." No, I couldn't but I could put in better components! If you go through customizing your Dell, keep Newegg or another site open, and each time you decide to upgrade a component, check the price online for that component. In one case Dell wanted $120 extra for a video card that cost $29 at Newegg! It's similar with hard drives, etc. The price for "upgrading" costs as much as buying the component to start with.
So if you buy the basic model, you probably can't do better. But if you want to improve on it, expect to pay 20-50% more than you should. And when do you see an off-the-shelf PC with just what you want in it?
2.2.3. Indeed
spyro17@... - 03/12/09 (Edited: 03/12/09 @ 05:36)
Personally, my computer is about 10 years old. It was built from scratch, and has been rebuilt several times to stay ontop of things, and thus remains capable of playing any modern game I care to. Whilst it's no monster, careful eBay shopping and some number crunching have given me a pretty good setup; in this latest rebuild, what would be considered a high-end standard PC, or a mid-level gaming PC from any of the main computer manufacturers.
Thus, I have now a PC that, prebuilt, would be worth what... $800 at least? But it cost me around $300 or less. That's less than half, and what you're paying for with that extra $500 is the brand name, the assembly, and the little paper strips that go over the case cover joints to make sure it hasn't been opened when you send it in for repair under warranty. Basically stuff noone cares about.
If anything, in these tough economic times, I expect we'll see a rise in homebuilt PCs, and in sources for information on exactly how to do so, and get the most bang for your buck; if not from present sources, than from new ones more attuned to the concerns of the customers.
When cash gets tight, people get thrifty, and building your own PC saves wads of cash.
2.2.3.1. Velocity Micro is the name to own for today.
rtirman37@... - 03/12/09
My $600 dollar computer took the Vista in the arm and became parts for my Vista gamer and online Muscle machine. I was happy to see they still make single channel mobo's for SLi at Evga. So my vault of computer goods since 1995 cost $4,600 and I have two working computers. Three parts computers; they are all five the same 2.0 single channel. I have gone through four video card X800XL six pin power cards. And out fitted my gamer with X850XT. 600w-750w PSU's.
Broadband user!
2.2.3.2. add this to my reply below.
jscstew@... - 03/20/09
Right on the money> That's dollars, USD, $, my hard earned cash. Not only do I enjoy it, it is still a bit cheaper if you go any higher than basic sys. I have three people using my home pc: they want more and excellent performance, and i want to give that to them. i can do it cheaper: that's why I started the first build.
2.2.4. un-extreme pc
jeffk464 - 08/22/09
I just ordered components to make a truly un-extreme pc. I built it for a HTPC and the performance I was going for was low power consumption and low noise. Still it should beat pretty much any desktop cpu consumer computer in low power use.
3. RE: Extreme PCs and
malcolm@... - 03/09/09
While "Extreme" PC's may be dead due to less disposible income, I think Homebrew PC's will continue to live on for the same reasons that I have been building my own machines for the last 15+ Years - For the same amt of $$ I can build a MUCH better machine than I can buy!
regards,
Malcolm
3.1. I agree
bvonr@... - 03/10/09 (Edited: 03/10/09 @ 01:50)
I just built a Core i7 940, 12G OCZ1600 Ram, ATI
Radeon HD4870X2 and 5 Sata HDD for $3200CAD and I
know to buy that prebuilt you couldn't! Building
my own I can customize it any which way I want
3.2. Same here
eMJayy - 03/10/09
I've been building my own PCs since I was just 16 years old and, quite frankly, it will take nothing short of the global termination of all manufacture and sales of OEM mainboards to force me to quit it.
The only PC I ever owned that was not custom built is an HP laptop that i bought a few years ago. I may have started out building just for the fun of it, but over time i came to realize that the PCs i build were far better quality machines than what some of my family and friends were buying from Dell and HP. I've never had a problem with my PC becoming outdated, because I update my mainboards about once a year. I also have never had any part failures on my home-built machines besides one hard drive failure (after 4 years of use as a secondary drive) and a stick of cheap DDR ram going bad - and I've been through a lot of parts. I was forced in the recent past to buy retail copies of Windows XP to get the appropriate license agreement for my upgrade activities, but things have now changed. These days Windows is less of an issue since I now just drop Linux distros on my machines and optionally add Windows later if that machine is to be upgraded for gaming or for my home music studio.
With a custom built PC, you can guarantee that your machine will have the best hardware and use high quality drivers that are not rushed to market like those of Dell, HPs etc. When you deal with companies whose specialty is to make a specific OEM product, test it and support it, you're more likely to get a reliable, powerful and stable machine out of it than you would when you rely on the big companies that rush their products to market before they've even got functionally stable drivers or solved hardware bugs. Of all the PCs I've owned, the only one that gave me trouble was that HP laptop.
3.2.1. Homebrew for me is Quality Control and Staged Upgrading
Drakaran - 03/11/09
I can't afford to put down the money at one time for a completely new PC, and on top of that, the hardware that brands use is not the optimal, but often discontinued/dated pieces.
I prefer certain hardware makers for reliability and driver support, which aren't necessarily those that brand labels use. I have so far been able to always buy better quality hardware for the same price as a prebuilt. Mostly, branded computers also have limited or restrictive hardware upgrading because of their corner-cutting practices (also because they want you to buy a new computer from them than upgrade what you have).
By building my own, I can also transition one or a few parts to upgrade at a time. For instance, with my current computer I put off buying a graphics card for over a year because those cards were in transition, and the type of card I wanted was selling for $500+ at the time. Waiting for about 18 months, I was able to buy an even better card for only $150. Most recently I bought a 1T drive for under $100.
So, by building my own, I can see a gradual performance boost, instead of having to wait much longer to buy a complete system. I can buy components for a great price that wind up serving me longer and more reliably than a prebuilt would have.
I can't feel sorry for builders like you that used to ride the front edge. I always figured it was like guys that build a "muscle car"... for bragging rights or showing off than practical use: you paid way too much for what you got with unstable drivers, often from companies that don't support their hardware for more than 6 months.
With the power of the new hardware, you really don't have to ride that edge to get plenty of power, and you'll quickly learn which manufacturers support -us- and therefore should also be supported (instead of just those with the most flash).
4. A similar revelation
oncall - 03/09/09
I recently bought the low end Macbook (love it BTW). I have been playing around with a 3+ year old Dell laptop that was the highest end just below XPS in its day and installed Ubuntu on it (a decent OS IMHO) and as I'm resting this almost 10 pound monster on my lap I asked myself "WTF was I thinking when I bought this?" I bought it to play games and since warcraft there haven't been really any awesome "gotta have it" games that push the technology and cannot be bought for a system like the xbox 360.
I guess my point was, back in the day, a homebrew system (of which I have put several together in my time) gave the high end user performance that wasn't readily available at an acceptable price to run the high end software. Now, all the manufacturers have "extreme" systems but the extreme software isn't there any more. Coupled with the dedicated game rigs like PS3 and xbox 360 further killing demand for high-end PC hardware. I have an xbox 360 and all the homebrew headaches are gone like driver compatability and other issues, I buy a game, it works as advertised.
IMHO the "bang for the buck" you used to be able to get with high end homebrew is gone. The cheapo systems satisfy almost all routine needs and for a few dollars more (or a PS3 purchase) you got the games covered.
4.1. Not true at all.
ShadeTree - 03/10/09
If you want a game that taxes a high end system then get Crysis. Here is the problem with the gaming systems like the Xbox 360 and the PS3. They may be state of the art when they are released but they don't change until the next platform release other then minor storage updates. A PC gamer can update their system every couple of months and rapidly overtake the consoles.
4.1.1. RE:Not true at all.
therealbondt@... - 03/10/09
Yes, but the ammount of people with a decent gaming rig vs. the total of console gamers do not overtake Console game Profits opposed to PCs.
Hopefully, we see more Cross-platform games that span across the major consoles as well as PCs. Then everyone can be happy. Microsoft and EA seem to be on the right track.
I wonder how the development costs would hold up to PC profits...
4.1.2. Over reliance on PC fools...
LeeC - 03/10/09 (Edited: 03/10/09 @ 03:43)
"A PC gamer can update their system every couple of months and rapidly overtake the consoles."
And they do, and that is why the PC software market is full of lazy, inefficient developers who opt for the "sloppy engine" option. They know that the fool on the other end of the keyboard WILL upgrade every 2 or 3 months, just to buy the hardware needed to cover their lazy backsides.
So whilst the console gamer will shell out ?200 for a complete gaming system, the fool with the over full wallet, will spend double that for a graphics card to run ONE game. So the difference is, they spend ?200 on a system that WILL run the games in 3 or 4 years time. The PC elitist will spend ?400 on an item that they know WON'T run the games in 3 or 4 years.
My system isn't that old, it a Core 2 E6600, an 8800GTX and 4GB ram. That system will not run Crysis at my monitors native res of 1680x1050 at a resonable rate (i.e. over 30 fps). So we're talking ?500+ for those 3 items that are already out of date, and probably have been from the moment Crysis was released.
Even if a new console was released every 2 years, it would still be cheaper than PC upgrades, and they would spend more time playing the games as they were designed to run.
I used to upgrade the minute new hardware came out, now, I simply don't game on my PC. I'm sick of buying new hardware to cover the ass of the lazy developer. That and the fact that the PC gaming catalogue seems to comprise of FPS, FPS, RTS, RPG, FPS, TPS, FPS etc...
4.1.3. Fewer Games for PC
ceh4702 - 03/11/09
Fewer and fewer games are being released for the PC.
4.2. Not All Of Us Are Kids
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
I think that's cute, how you bought a computer to play games...*snicker*...I remember wanting to do that...when I was like 12. LOL There's plenty of professional level software out there that needs a high end system to run...it really isn't about kiddie games so much...unless you're a defective from generation Barney.
4.2.1. Driving force
oncall - 03/12/09
And you are thinking maybe Microsoft Office is to credit for moving forward 3D processors and faster CPU's?
4.2.1.1. *snicker*
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
When I said "professional level software"...you really had no idea at all what I was even talking about, did you? LOL Kids, very cute...not all that bright though. *pats you on the head* Go back to playing your little kiddy games, Junior.
4.2.1.1.1. Was that an argument?
oncall - 03/12/09
I read all your posts here. I have noticed that not one of them managed to make a coherent point without being offensive. Do you have anything to contribute to the discussion or are you just good at making offensive and clueless posts?
4.2.1.1.1.1. Actually...
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
My posts are purposefully designed so that people of lesser intelligence can't read them, whilst those higher intelligence have no problems at all. Of course *YOU* can't see any of the points or arguments I make, not when the little "offensive" things drive you to act on emotion so quickly without the benefit of intellect. You focus completely on that which makes you butt hurt and angry, completely ignoring any facts, arguments, etc. It's basically my way of gauging a person's intelligence, seeing how you react to my posts. ^__^
4.2.1.1.1.1.1. Wow...
EarFix - 04/28/09
I know ZDNets forums are crawling with the worst and filthiest of trolls, but for downright obnoxiousness, offensiveness and total lack of rhetoric or logic, you take the f***ing cake!
Crawl back under your stone, you slimy piece of ****!
4.2.1.1.2. I also noticed
oncall - 03/12/09
I noticed your old enough, as I am, to remember PC's before NVIDIA and ATI. Then surely you know that these companies became what they are marketing their "bread and butter" mainstream cards to gamers. Yes, they have their professional level cards to market to graphics professionals (like you I assume) but the real money is in selling mainstream cards to gamers. Because, let's face it, unless you are a graphics professional, or a gamer, there is no reason TODAY for average Joe to buy anything more than the cheapest of PC's with an Intel integrated graphics chip. Now Matrox limited themselves more to professionals but I get a kick out of their web page featuring the triplehead2go with a picture of Warcraft. It's no surprise at all, gamers, especially the old ones like me, have money to spend.
4.2.1.1.2.1. The Point Is
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
The kiddies are gonna be picky, they're only going to spend so much and only have so much to spend. The professionals...they'll pay whatever the price is, even if it's completely outrageous...and then just pass the cost along. Now I'm not saying that the kiddies don't do their part to get the technology moving, but the very *FIRST* line of customers are the professionals. It's like when I first bought a portable DVD player, I paid $1,000 for it, then, over time, the prices leveled out to around $250 to $500...now that reached the "gamer" market, the kiddie market, now the kiddies then pushed it on down to where it is today between $50 to $150 for a portable DVD player. But the kiddies never would have even gotten it if it weren't for the professionals who purchased it in the first place. This is one of the reasons why VR tech hasn't gone down in price at all over the past 10 years, because not enough professionals have bought the stuff for them to justify lowering the price down to the affordable gamer range. The VR glasses and pinch glove I bought back in 1995 (and upgraded in 2000 for $50) are worth as much today as when I originally bought them.
5. I disagree
itpro_z - 03/09/09
Other than at the super low end, I can select components and build myself a better computer for the price, or an equal computer for a better price, than the big names can provide. Especially now with our economy collapsing under the weight of government excess, that is an attractive option. We also end up with a machine that we can repair or upgrade ourselves, rather than being held at the whim of the OEM. I have a number of high end Gateways at our office that we purchased with a 3 year Gold warranty, only to have the company go bankrupt and invalidate the warranty. If a component in my home system fails, I simply replace it at reasonable cost, without the hassle of arguing with a minimum wage tech who barely understands English.
5.1. Then you actually agree with him.
TripleII - 03/09/09
He was talking about the superpowerful. You are talking about biggest bang for the buck. He was talking about extreme (I would say, obscene, $16K for a desktop, lol, but I digress).
TripleII
5.1.1. Or not
itpro_z - 03/09/09
That extreme portion of the market was never more than a tiny slice. I would argue, though, that especially at the very high end there is more savings from home building than any where else. Those high end 5 figure gaming machines also come with high end markup.
For the rest of us, getting more bang for the buck has always been part of the draw of building our own machines. However much money we have to spend, we can get more by shopping for components rather than systems. In the end, though, it is the satisfaction of bringing a box of parts to life that is the biggest thrill for me.
5.1.1.1. On that I agree.
TripleII - 03/09/09
it is the satisfaction of bringing a box of parts to life that is the biggest thrill for me.
I do this quite a bit. It is entirely satisfying to take a "dead" machine, one bogged down or not working right anymore, swap a component, usually just a re-install and then donate it to the salvation army. Saving friends from a $500 need that isn't a need (people think hardware slows down over time, it's weird, except hard drives, it works or doesn't, lol).
Be it a re-install of the original OS or installing a new OS, most machines less than 5 years old are completely useful. It doesn't help the economy, or OEMs, etc, but it isn't my job or duty to throw good hardware out. 
Case and point, a perfectly decent desktop I acquired, I put this in it to compensate for the dead ethernet and I will either give it to a friend or donate it. Without the homebrew market, it wouldn't be possible.
http://www.shop.com/Linksys_Wireless_G_PCI_Card_WMP54G_Network_adapter_PCI_Wi_Fi,_802_11g_(Open_Box)-152249153-182444066-p!.shtml?sourceid=298
TripleII
5.1.1.1.1. Ah, yes. The WMP54G...
eMJayy - 03/10/09
I still use that card on two of my older Ubuntu PCs - works flawlessly in 8.10. The windows drivers for versions 4.0 and 4.1 of the card are a bit old though....the last windows drivers were issued in 2005/2006. Still, it's a very reliable Wifi card.
5.1.1.1.1.1. I got these drivers
hrpuffnstuff - 03/12/09
From the Ralink website after upgrading a Pc to XP SP3 and when I did the PC kept going on and off the wireless network ever 2 seconds. I removed the Linksys driver, installed the Ralink which also asked me if I wanted to use Wireless Zero or the Ralink utility to config the card then boom it worked flawlessly and was dated 12/2008.
http://www.ralinktech.com.tw/data/drivers/IS_AP_STA_6x_D-1.2.6.0_VA-2.1.3.0_RU-2.2.0.0_VA-2.2.5.0_AU-2.1.0.0_VA-2.1.0.0_120908_1.0.7.0_Free.exe
5.1.1.3. Gaming != retarderly expensive
tikigawd - 03/10/09
Don't equate all gaming rigs with moronic spending ($16K for a machine??? WTF?)
Saving money is exactly why I started putting together my own machines.
People who plunk down $4k, $5k, $6k, or freaking $16k on a machine probably do it because they can't think of other more creative ways to spend their trust fund money.
5.1.1.3.1. re: Gaming != retarderly expensive
cbradshaw@... - 03/10/09
The family trust pays all of the property and utility expenses here. When it comes to discretionary spending, the trust is tight fisted, and rightly so. I am 53 and permanently disabled. Almost all of my computer parts and software purchases have been out of my Social Security Disability Insurance, after the expenses that I pay for are taken care of each month.
For my last system parts purchase, I spent about $1,500 for hardware and $500 on software. This is my current system.
5.1.1.3.2. There Are Other Gaming Options To Consider As Well
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
I'm personally very much into retro gaming (especially RPGS) and via the use of emulators there are quite literally HUNDREDS of games that I missed out on growing up, many of which are quite fun and nostalgic. There were also a lot of Japanese games that in many cases have only been recently translated to English by fans. Such games as the rather incredible (for its time) Star Ocean, Tales of Phantasia, Lunar Legend, Secret of the Stars, the Tales of the World series, and the most recent example being Mother 3 (a fan translation was released just a short while ago).
Anyway, the point is that gaming doesn't always have to be about the latest and greatest and the newest games aren't necessarily the best games.
5.1.1.3.2.1. It all depends on what you like
tikigawd - 03/17/09
I actually like old games as well (I'm currently re-playing the Space Quest Series), but I like new ones as well.
If running emulators is what you like then cool.
But it's not for everyone.
Anyway, my point was that you don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of money to get a decent gaming machine.
5.1.1.3.3. retarderly expensive
jeffk464 - 08/22/09
Also what is the point in having a rig that is that much better then the more common hardware the computer games are written to run on. If game makers made games for $16,000 computers they wouldn't sell many copies, would they. I remember buying the first ever geforce and waiting for like 6 months for games to come out that would actually take advantage of it.
5.1.1.4. Agreed
djchandler - 03/10/09
Breathing life into a non-working box or building a new one is just fun to do for some of us.
I also agree with TripleII about re-cycling and making a donation. There are a lot of very usable 3-5 year old machines out there that just need a tune-up i.e., get rid of superseded or duplicate software, crapware, spyware, or viruses, clean registry, defrag, etc. Most people don't really know how to do all these things.
5.2. what a load of bollocks
Kaiwai - 03/10/09
Gateway never went bankrupt - they are now owned, along with eMachines, but Acer.
Ok, so you like to stroke your ego by building computers at home - there is no need to resort to lying just to make your case.
5.3. Gateway never went bankrupt.
ShadeTree - 03/10/09
Gateway was purchased by Acer who is now responsible to honor the warranty. The arguement that you can build cheaper then buy is also false. You simply don't get the volume pricing an OEM gets. Most often when people argue I can build it cheaper they are not doing an Apples to Apples comparison.
5.3.1. Not necessarily so, by building the system
alaniane@... - 03/10/09
yourself, you can recycle parts from the old system. Also, you can customize the system yourself eliminating unnecessary components. When you buy a system, it's all or nothing. True, you can upgrades to the system, but you have to purchase the complete basic package.
I do agree with you where volume licensing comes into play and I would agree that if I tried to build an exact duplicate of an off the shelf model, then it would cost me more. However, the appeal of homebrew systems is building only what you need and not having to compromise on extras thrown in. That's where building you own system is cheaper than buying an already built system.
5.3.2. See reply to TripleII below
djchandler - 03/10/09
http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-17924-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=61752&messageID=1139265
5.4. AMEN! I usually find that ...
USTechHead - 03/10/09
Jason is often incorrect... the fact he predicted this makes me feel much better.
5.5. government excess?
crawdoogie@... - 03/10/09
"Especially now with our economy collapsing under the weight of government excess.."
What have you been smoking? The greed of financial institutions and the LACK of governmental oversight has created the current economic "crisis". The only government excess here is giving billions to companies like AIG. Let them burn I say.
6. RE: Extreme PCs and
JJ Brannon - 03/09/09
Having added hardware from my first whitebox 386SX in 1990, I haven't upgraded a system with an after-sale purchased component [aside from memory] since 2002.
JJB
7. It's not about dispoable income!
mwagner@... - 03/09/09
It's really about turning the personal computer into a commodity.
In 1980, the personal computer was indeed a hobbyist's toy. It was a premium product that a few put their hard-earned money into.
IBM recognized the productivity potential and, in 1981, introduced the IBM PC. IBM convinced the enterprise that they needed a $3,000 computer on every desktop to improve the productivity of their staff.
Those workers came to realize that those computers could be useful (and fun) to have at home.
In the days of $3,000 desktops, the savings from "growing your own" could be substantial but those days are gone.
As production costs dropped and the marketplace became more competitive, margins were cut and many OEMs went out of business.
The top tier vendors today are fighting tooth and nail for ever sale they can get and prices keep dropping toward some mythical price-point that will be irresistible to all.
In the end, the economies of scale afforded to the really large OEMs have cut the small OEM out of business and made it impossible for the hobbyist to save any money by building their own system.
Add to this that hardware advances always lead software advances and we find ourselves with dual-core desktop systems selling for $300 (sans monitor) and laptops selling for under $500. Netbooks are selling around $300.
Even at these price-points we are not talking about LAME systems. Most all of them will run a wide range of commonly used software. Even a high-performance gaming system can cost under $1,000.
So yes, I think the "grow your own" market is dead - and it has nothing to do with the economy. The economic situation will only put the smaller OEMs (and small component suppliers) out of business sooner.
7.1. It's not about resale either.
CobraA1 - 03/09/09
You talk as if all system builders are reselling their systems and are in the resale business - I don't think that's it either.
Frankly, I think most of us do it for ourselves, and I think most of us do it because we don't want to end up with cheap parts. We're not always going for top-of-the-line systems, we're often just going for something with a decent motherboard that won't BSOD every Friday.
"Add to this that hardware advances always lead software advances and we find ourselves with dual-core desktop systems selling for $300 (sans monitor) and laptops selling for under $500."
Because dual-core systems are, frankly, old technology. My family's system and my own system are both Core 2 quads, and I'm starting to know more people with i7s.
"Even a high-performance gaming system can cost under $1,000."
That was the case several years back. Where have you been?
Maybe not extreme systems - but you could build decent sub-$1000 gaming systems for quite some time now.
7.1.1. Agreed. Building as a reseller is dead
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 02:20)
But we can still replace individual components, ad-hoc. Which helps to keep the one-off costs down.
Of course it helps too, if Windows product activation isn't a factor, by using open source alternatives.
Jason appears to be the sort that needs to have a 'paid for' life-support system. Which many of us are happy to forego.
7.1.1.1. True enough, if "build-it-yourself" is a hobby.
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
But Jason, and most of the rest of us, use our computers to make a living, or we use them for gaming, or other personal productivity types of activities.
It becomes a matter of how you want to spend your time. Jason wants to spend his time blogging.
The point of the article is that the build-it-yourself is almost dead because the cost savings of doing so simply aren't there anymore.
Granted, you have more freedom to customize your system by building it yourself but very few have such a need. And those that do, can easily justify the added expense and time involved.
7.1.2. No, it's not about resale ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... but the point is the same. Frankly, a Core 2 quad system is OVERKILL in a home network setting.
Yes, if you are hell-bent on extreme technology for the sake of the technology, you probably can shave a few bucks off of a "build-it-yourself" high-end system but, very very few home users need that kind of power.
And, you make my point about the sub-$1000 gaming rigs.
7.1.2.1. RE: Core 2 quad
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/12/09
Maybe it is overkill for most. But!!!
There is a *need* to run instances of Windows on Virtual Server/VirtualPC/VMWare/xVM VirtualBox etc.
As we're all too aware, running many applications on Microsoft Windows is asking for trouble, as far as clashes and registry screw-ups are concerned. Yes you can fix the problems, if you don't mind wasting your precious free-time, tracking down the root causes. (this involves copious amounts of good luck too, don't forget)
Running 'single-purpose' VM's solves a lot of these stability issues, so a quad core system comes in quite useful. Even for domestic users.
So, for the most part, it's to save time and effort fixing Windows's problems.
8. I'm not dead yet!
jonbach - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 11:45)
Hi Jason -
We should have talked before you ran this piece! We were not pitching you an extreme PC in hopes people would buy it. We were showing off a PC that WAS purchased to meet real, extreme needs. There is no doubt the industry is changing. I think this economy has helped people to realize that most people do not need extreme PC's. As even entry level computers gain in strength, they are becoming more of an appliance than a tool. How much PC do you need? Not want, but need. I think it is great that people are realizing the difference. It equals the playing field between builders like us, and builders who will upsell you to anything they can get away with. While an extreme PC may not be a need for the masses, there are still legitimate needs out there that extreme PCs provide for. It's changing, but that part of the industry is far from dead, and the PC's we're building every day are testiment to that.
Jon Bach
President - Puget Systems
http://www.pugetsystems.com
8.1. I feel for you
Speednet - 03/11/09
It was a nasty back-stabbing moment when this blog post was published. I think you know who not to send stuff to in the future.
If you were a hobbyist who sent in a picture of your PC masterpiece, it may not be out-of-bounds to write this quasi-mocking blog post. The PC owner might feel a betrayal of trust, but it's not like he would lose income from it.
But the fact that he did that to a technology business that relies upon the sales of customized systems -- without even contacting you about it -- is pathetic.
I have not purchased anything from your company, but it's in my bookmarks and I check in every once in a while to see what you're up to, because you guys seem like you do quality work.
9. Just as the world buys complete automobiles.
No_Ax_to_Grind - 03/09/09
There was a time when lots of people built cars and even made a living at it. Those days are over for the most part.
9.1. people made cars?
Col Mustard - 03/09/09
Peaople may have restored old cars but building cars form scratch was never done to any degree by homebuilders.
9.1.1. Kit Cars
jperlow - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 08:42)
There are kit cars. The market was never huge but it did exist, particularly for reproduction vehicles that were highly desirable, such as the Shelby Cobra and several well-known classic British sports cars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_car
Also, some forms of restoration are so extreme as to require near complete fabrication of the entire vehicle from component parts, custom housings, etc.
9.1.2. Oh REALLY?????
Dr_Zinj - 03/10/09
You, my boy, have lived your life in a plastic, opaque bubble.
Granted the first assumption that from scratch you mean a pile of unconnected parts, and not pouring your own engine block. I only know of 3 places in New England that will pour molten iron or steel, and that's several years out of date.
In the year 1977-1978, my brother constructed his own convertible in our garage solely from spare parts gathered from dozens of junk yards in upstate New York. It was most definately NOT a restoration, nor a kit. It was a bastardized assemblege of disparate frames, engines, body panels, transmissions (yes, plural on the transmissions - you wouldn't beleive where he went to find gears), differentials and axles, windows, oh-my-god the convertible top assembly and motor. Some parts he couldn't find, so he and my father milled them by hand.
Yes, it was a home built car from scratch. He only drove it for 3 years and then sold it for material costs. No way he'd have been able to get the labor costs for it. But by GOD was he ever proud of that car.
Kind of the way many of us feel when we cobble together a PC from spare parts.
9.1.2.1. Of course he was ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
Because he wasn't doing it because it was cost-effective. He did it as a hobby. The point of the article is that "build-it-yourself" PCs is not cost-effective, not that it isn't FUN.
9.1.2.1.1. Still Wrong
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
It *IS* cost effective...if you know what the hell you're doing. It's a balance though between stability, quality, lifespan, initial cost and upkeep costs. Is it "cost effective" to buy a system for $400 when you're going to have to replace it every two years? Or is it "cost effective" to buy a system for a $1,000 that will last you 10 years? Or is it "cost effective" to spend $2,000 on a system that will never crash and won't have any problems?
There are dozens of different options and variables to consider, all of which will be different from person to person. Part of hiring someone to build you a personal system is about getting their expertise in setting up the ideal system for *YOU*.
For example I recently had a customer that wanted a computer built into a wall socket...so I built it for him, using a pico ITX board and using a 64gig USB flash drive as the HD. And in fact there are even companies selling, essentially, bare bones wall socket computers.
I had another customer who wanted a computer that looked like a cat...so I found them a modded case that looked like a cat, they were very happy.
The point is customization, having what *YOU* want rather than the plain Jane, vanilla flavor that everyone else has. Now, that might "cost" you a bit more, money wise, but it'll "cost" you far less aggravation and headaches. And on top of that you can express yourself through your computer by having a customized case.
Now, I'm sure for some that's not really important and they don't care at all what their computer looks like nor do they care if it crashes all the time, nor do they care that they're going to have to replace the whole sh*t box in about two years...and hey, for those people, like yourself, well you just head on down to K-Mart and knock yerselves out. Trust me, no one is going to be rushing out the door to try and stop you and watching you whine about how Windows is so faulty for crashing all the time will only bring amusement and entertainment to those like myself.
To put it rather bluntly though...you don't belong here...seriously, this is a tech forum, for those that are interested in technology, said customization, said personal expression, said quality components...it's *NOT* for clueless lessers who just want to go out and buy some little $200 Dell sh*t box so that they can send e-mail to grandma.
Essentially, this whole article is nothing more than a screaming tantrum from some idiot who has no business even being here at all. If he worked for me, I would have rightly considered his blog post to be his resignation and would have hired someone who was ACTUALLY interested in building computers and so forth to replace his useless existence here. He obviously has no business at all being in this industry.
9.1.2.1.1.1. I've been in IT for 29 years ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... so don't tell me I don't belong here!
You want customization? Fine, but it will cost you more money than buying something with equal capabilities off-the-shelf.
Jason's point is that (except perhaps with extreme system configurations) you cannot SAVE MONEY by building-it-yourself! He made no attempt to consider other needs which might justify building your own system.
Your examples of the need for customization are legitimate but pretty rare. Oh, and you are a VAR (value-added-reseller) so for you it is cost-effective because you're recovering your costs and adding something for your time. For the hobbyist, it is done for FUN so the time spent is not a consideration. (And often, neither is cost.)
But if the issue is simply cost, then Jason is correct. Build-it-yourself represents a small niche of users and it is growing smaller by the day.
Your argument suggesting that a $2,000 system will last twice as long as a $1,000 system is just ridiculous. It may perform twice as well but since most desktop CPU cycles go unused anyway, performance gains are marginal and longevity claims are even more so.
As for the ten-year system lifetime that you claimed ...
In 2000, I spent around $1,800 on a mid-range Dell (866MHz, 256MB RAM, 24-bit graphics, 16MB video RAM, 3.5"FDD, CD-ROM, two 10GB HDD, 17" monitor). After a couple of years I upgraded to 512MB of RAM and ended up with about $2,000 invested.
In the 7 years that I owned it, I had one hardware failure, a $10 cooling fan, so clearly reliability from Dell was not a problem.
In 2007, it still ran but processor speed was entirely unacceptable, disk space was entirely unacceptable, RAM speed was entirely unacceptable. No DVD-RW. No USB 2.x. No graphics capability.
Sure, all of these features could have been upgraded along the way but that would have added considerably to the initial $2,000 cost so seven years later, either the entire system has been replaced (at considerable expense) or the system would be so lame as to be laughable.
I spent under $500 to replace the entire system with a far superior (but still entry-level) box and monitor. Today, I could get a 2GHz dual-core system with 2GB of RAM for even less than that! My point? I don't care what you spend on hardware, five years is an outside practical lifetime on any system. Spreading the cost out over time through periodic upgrades may make the outlay less painful but it does not reduce the overall cost of the system, it increases it.
9.1.2.1.1.1.1. Yeah, EVERYONE Online...
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
...has been working with computers since like, THE SIXTIES, man! LOL
Sorry, but your subject line was just so juvenile and laughable that I didn't even bother reading your post at all.
And honestly, just because you've been working with computers for x number of years doesn't mean that you know f*ck all about them. As I mentioned in another post, there are certainly no shortage of poser class dipshits and wannabes festering within this industry and "tall talk" about outdated hardware you looked up in Wikipedia isn't going to get you very far with someone like me. There are generally only two kinds of people online...those that produce...and those that run at the mouth.
This being my latest piece:
http://onideus.blogspot.com/2009/03/flash-animation-player-update.html
A cookie cutter Flash application I developed that lets users easily create animated JPG and PNG sequences with hardly any effort at all.
PS - If you've really been in this industry for as long as you claim, surely you can point out some links via Google's Usenet archive to provide actual evidence of your claim. ^__^
9.1.2.1.1.1.2. RE: off-the-shelf systems
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/12/09 (Edited: 03/12/09 @ 03:19)
I often fix other people's off-the-shelf systems, and they're as dull as ditch water. More often than not with sub-par components. Such as slower memory and lower RPM HDDs, also, the on-board graphics can't run Vista's Aero at 100% features. (no glass effects)
They paid for a system that was at the time of purchase, not fit to run the latest & greatest software.
No resale value whatsoever. So it's more likely to go straight to the recycling centre when they grow out of it, aka bored with it.
9.1.2.1.1.1.3. run at the mouth=?
EarFix - 04/28/09 (Edited: 04/28/09 @ 02:40)
Onideus_Mad_Hatter said:
"There are generally only two kinds of people online...those that produce...and those that run at the mouth."
Well, then we sure know which kind you are.......bigmouth!
BTW, checked out your splog at blogspot, sucks big time!
Righteous bastards like you can just go to hell...
9.1.2.1.1.1.4. I don't care if you have been in it since day one and invented the PC.
Cayble - 07/02/09 (Edited: 08/22/09 @ 10:49)
You can build cheaper then purchasing a prebuilt off the shelf system, unless you purchase parts from a small time operater who doesn't sell parts in enough volume to be able to sell at a low price, and you are trying to replicate a low to middle-low end system off the shelves of a big discount store.
How you could say that you cannot purchase the parts and build cheaper is way beyond me if you have been doing that for 29 years. Its just that obvious if one looks at the prices, adds up the cost then tries to purchase the same identical thing off the shelf, you can build cheaper, there isn't some kind of question about this, its clear and its there to be seen.
You can always build more expensive if you make no effort to get good prices, but thats not what we are talking about here.
And thats not where the smart move of building your own ends. You can add or subtract parts where it makes good sense for you.
9.1.2.1.2. Cost Effective is a relative term
Dr_Zinj - 03/12/09
Material costs are almost always cheaper doing home building, no matter if for your own use or resale.
Shipping costs may or may not be an issue. Most retail home builders are supplying systems for people in the local area who do their pick up and transport themselves. i.e. no cost to the assembler.
Labor costs are of such high variability and subjectiveness that you can easily go nuts trying to figure them out. Do you price labor at minimum wage ($7.25), average wage for local area ($9.78-$24.17), the Salary.Com figure for what PC techs make working for companies in your area (do you include paid vacations, health insurance, and other bennies?)($16.88-$24.96), what I make at work ($29.85) or what a Information Services Consultant ($36.82-$59.52) makes? I'd make an argument that in today's employment climate, you would be best served by choosing the minimum wage or the local wage for your figures. That being the case, then home built versus bought is slightly cheaper to about the same.
Of course if costs are the same, then you also need to consider intangible value added. You build it, you better understand how it works and how to use it. You also gain usable knowledge that you can take to other jobs. It's one thing to take a network engineering certification course and build one in a lab setting; it's something else entirely if you design and build your servers, clients, and local area network on your own.
9.1.2.2. Hot rodders, from street to net,
Otis Driftwood - 04/06/09 (Edited: 04/06/09 @ 04:22)
An old adage, "speed costs money. How fast can you afford to go?"
I put together cars from pieces of other cars.
I put a Nash Metro body on a cut down chevrolet pickup frame once.
I put a massaged 283 C.U.I. chevy mill in it,ported and relieved, and flow benched, two 650 Holley carbs,a roller kit,it had an alternator to keep the battery up, but the engine was fired by magnetos, it had geared timing, electric cooling fans for the four core radiator we stuffed into it,two oil coolers which also had forced air over their fins,we bent our own headers and roll cage because we had access to a pipe bender and backed all that up with a Muncie Rock Crusher,and the rear was out of a Ford Thunderbird.
I made my own dual wheels for the rears, instead of going with Hoosiers.
I didn't even have to turn the spring shackles upside down, the rocker panels were easily three feet off the ground.
I painted it red with yellow blue and white flames, and named it The Afterbirth.
When you came off the line one of four things was sure to happen.
1. She'd go up in smoke.
2. She'd do a wheelstand, even with wheelie-bars wheelstands meant get out of it=lose.
3. She'd unceremoniously twist the front yoke off the driveshaft.
4. She'd do everything just right and we won.
We were street racers so we ran for money.
I'm presently looking for odds and ends for a 49 Merc, and a 32 Chevy Coupe. The Mercs for my kid, the 32 Coupe is to Match my 32 Pick-up. My 32 pickup has a built 454 and a built 700R4 tranny with a BDS low pressure supercharger on it, no NOS needed. I'm running four bar fronts with dual caliper ABS and Jaguar rears (independant) with dual calipers on there too. She's slammed into the weeds, but I can lift it about 4 1/2 inches if needed. The front bodywork is fiberglass.
The frame has been modified (v'd) and the roof has been raked 4 inches.
Blue dots?
You betcha!
Not only does Charlie not surf, he don't hotrod either.
I'll have to tell ya about my Hemi powered 49 ford (shoebox)sometime. Built 35 years ago, still on the streets, I see it sometimes and don't miss it at all.
The machine PC I'm on now was cheaper all put together than I could have built it for, it is the first computer I didn't build or rebuild myself. Not counting my TRS 80 of course.
9.2. Automotivations
dszimmer - 03/10/09
At the start of the automotive industry there
were plenty of tinkerers with startups making
horseless carriages. I'd say "Pimp my Ride" is
the automotive analogy to extreme computing.
But right now we're seeing a rebirth of
automotive moding because of the energy
situation with biofuel and full electric
conversions.
9.2.1. Good point although
T1Oracle - 03/10/09
I'd say that modifying a car is a lot more work, requires more expensive tools, and greater physical dexterity and strength. For one, I can plug in a video card in seconds, mounting a hub cap with my bare hands however took a few minutes. Trying to install a short shifter with springs and tight fitting housings in the way... that was beyond me... Modding/building computers is a much more accessible activity.
9.2.1.1. @T1oracle
Otis Driftwood - 04/06/09 (Edited: 04/06/09 @ 05:03)
I dunno man, now-a-days they just hook a computer to the engine to change power output, drop in a hot chip. I heard a sweet sounding engine the other day and this guy said watch this, bunched a button and the muscular lope of the punched 348 at idle, changed to a super smoothe purr. WTF? He pushed another button and reved it a hair...F1...his street beater could be switched in the idle mode, to SOUND more powerful than they are. He said every selection also changed the power delivery, which I seriously doubt. Who ever thought about modeling amps for guitars must have elaborated. Wish my exhaust would play "We Are The Champions" like Team Renauds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aArSn4IhHI&feature=related
9.2.2. Changes in technology = Opportunity
Dr_Zinj - 04/16/09
Homebuilding (or brewing) arises from two major motivations.
First, there's been a significant change in technology that increases available variablity that individuals see an opportunity to improve on current practices.
Second, there is a need for self-satisfaction expressed by craftsmanship. Sure, I could hire professionals to install that parquette flooring. But there will always exist that niggling suspicion that they cut some corners to do it as cheaply as they could and charge as much as I would be willing to pay. Whereas if I do it myself, I know what I did right (and wrong), how to fix it later, and can take personal pride in my work.
So what value do you place on personal craftsmanship?
Fully loaded Mach V from Falcon Northwest:
$9203.13
Building it yourself from scratch:
Priceless
9.3. Wow...You Really Haven't A Clue
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
There are several dozen different communities that center around car restoration, creation, modification, etc. From kit cars, to street racing, to land speed record setters, to people building solar powered and other alternative energy cars, heck recently there was even a guy who built a Ferrari in his basement completely from scratch...and wound up having to dig a hole out of his basement in order to get the thing out. LOL
9.3.1. Homebuilt Ferarri
Otis Driftwood - 04/06/09 (Edited: 04/06/09 @ 05:43)
I remember that car man. I'll bet it's over at Jalopnic. I also couldn't help but wonder how he was going to fit any pedals in the tiny area.
I've seen a couple of Testarosa "copies" which were a body kit fitted to a moded Cadillac, I don't want one.Part of what makes a Testarosa as serious as a heart attack and that is frame geometry, Ferarris are built to handle the demands of precision drivers. The fakes probably understeer worse than Corvairs were supposed to. I had a corvair, no understeer, I also had a Mercury Capri, "super collosal" =thanks Joe Satriani, super collosal understeer. They (corvairs)also overheated if you didn't wash the squirrel nests out of the cooling shrouds every now and then.
other factors? Strategic location of wieght, healthy power to weight ratio,dynamic
stressed componants such as provided by Fararri.
I'll never understand anyone capable of owning a "faux" ferarri, the auto would never be a good cadillac again, and it'll never hit the mark even for a rebuilt from salvage Ferarri. Really.
10. Just put Linux on homebrewed PC
Linux Geek - 03/09/09
and that alone will give you a leg up against OEMs when it come to price.
10.1. Not likely
jperlow - 03/09/09
Even with the cost of the Windows licenses included, there is very little value gain in home-brewing an equivalent system. The more inexpensive a PC you get, the lower the margins are. You'd have to buy a very expensive PC to make up for the margins. There is also the issue of warranty and support to consider.
10.1.1. But most of us provide our own support.
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 02:07)
As for warranties, they're worth squat.
As a matter of fact, I don't recall *ever* having to excercise one.
10.1.1.1. Warranties; The new protection racket
fletchoid - 03/12/09
Warranties are often worth squat. Ever tried to collect on one from one of the big box retailers? There always seems to be some fine print on page 4 that says YOUR problem is not covered. Tony Soprano couldn't think of a better scam.... "It'd be a shame if somethin happened to your printer wouldn't it?"
Regarding home built systems: Sure, we may go through a period of time when nobody is trying to display their nerd testosterone with their liquid helium cooled, 2000 Watt gaming machine that costs more than a car. However, many of us would still prefer to select quality components that can be upgraded a little at a time, rather than having to drop a bundle all at once every few years when your "state of the art" computer becomes old news. Of course you can buy something off the shelf cheaper than if you build it yourself. Just be prepared to chuck it into landfill in 3 or 4 years.
10.1.1.1.1. RE: Warranties
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/13/09
Yes, I couldn't agree more.
I think the warranty racket spoilt the retailer's follow on sales. Due to a growing mistrust of the way warranties were loaded against the customer. Full of legal BS that provided no comfort to the poor sap that took one out. And yes, it's legalised scamming as far as I can tell.
10.1.2. Linux support is free
T1Oracle - 03/10/09
It's called a message board and it often works better than calling Dell. In fact with Google, you can get your answer in 0.023 seconds. Try that with tech support.
Also, if you know how to assembling the system then you already have a leg up in understanding how to fix it.
10.1.2.1. Linux support is not "free" for everybody
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
It is only free for those who understand how computers work. Damned few people who use computers every day have any idea what is going on 'under the hood' and if you don't understand that, you have to pay someone to support you.
You can support yourself on Linux but could you replace the wheel bearings on your car or would you have to pay someone? A computer is a lot more intimidating to most people than a car.
10.1.3. Very True...For Computer Illiterates
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
People like yourself should *NEVER* attempt to build your own computer, because you'll likely screw it all up and it'll cost you a whole lot more money than you bargained for, not having any clue at all what to buy or why. Further, if anything goes wrong you don't have tech support there to babysit your computing experience and keep you out of trouble when you mess the whole thing up. Yes, for kiddies like yourself you should *ALWAYS* go with a box brand computer. Leave the home brewing to those that know what they're doing. *nods*
10.1.4. Not to mention that ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... OEMs pay Microsoft very little per license. And, while a Linux license is "free" Linux support is not. The end-user can support himself for "free" (aside form his time) but the OEM must pay for Linux support (regardless of whether it is in-house or purchased). Microsoft, on the other hand, rolls its support into the licensing fee.
Linux systems sold by OEMs are generally cheaper than Windows systems because they are usually less beefy, and almost invariably, telephone support is an extra cost feature.
10.2. I agree
djchandler - 03/10/09
If you don't need Windows, you're coming in at a better price with much better components than a white box from somebody trying to turn a buck on system building. And if you consider the number of items from a previous build that can be re-cycled in the new build, that's where the real savings are. Why keep buying the same components over and over and adding to e-waste unnecessarily? First things that come to mind in terms of re-cycling are cases, good, reliable power supplies and DVD drives/writers.
Among the most plentiful items at our local computer surplus exchange are CD and DVD drives. If a DVD drive does go bad, it usually does so quickly in my experience. As for Blu-Ray, even a $79.00 price tag (MicroCenter) on an internal Sony Blu-Ray drive isn't enough to convince me that an optical drive upgrade is required yet.
11. Extreme may be dying - but system building is not dying and not dead.
CobraA1 - 03/09/09
I disagree.
You can build some pretty impressive machines for cheap.
The Puget system you mentioned? That's a pretty extreme system. I think most system builders are likely to between the $2000 and $5000 mark.
I don't think most system builders are out to push the extremes. Rather, I think most of them are trying to get the most bang for the buck.
Sure, it may be nice to build an occasional "no budget limits" system, but that's probably a once in a lifetime thing for most system builders. I'd say the vast majority of systems they build are on budgets and to meet specific requirements.
Maybe super EXTREME systems are dead - but system building itself is not. Not by a long shot.
In fact, I think system building will become more popular as people with tighter budgets want to get more bang for their buck and want to build systems for specific needs on a budget.
People will also want to upgrade incrementally as they get money more slowly, rather than buying an entire new system. A custom built machine is far easier to upgrade than an OEM system.
"Now, don?t get me wrong. I happen to think real pornography is healthy."
Anybody who thinks some amount of porn is "healthy" needs their head checked. But that's an issue for another time.
"New processors? More cores? Faster graphics cards? Improved versions of Windows? Who gives a crap anymore."
Maybe that's not the point of most custom systems. Sure, people occasionally do that - but I think most system builders are in fact building systems for specific needs within a budget.
11.1. Pornography
jperlow - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 12:55)
Anybody who thinks some amount of porn is "healthy" needs their head checked. But that's an issue for another time.
Pornography has been around since the time of ancient civilizations -- the great kingdoms of Meso America, the Egyptians and the Persians, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Romans, and ancient China and India, Thailand and Japan, just to name a few. It's been around as long as we've painted icons on the walls of caves. It's part of our culture. It's in our DNA.
11.1.1. Murder has been around that long too
CobraA1 - 03/09/09
"Pornography has been around since the time of ancient civilizations"
So?
Murder has been around that long too, but it is also considered immoral and we send people to jail for life (or death) for it.
11.1.1.1. Yes, but unless you're the Joker
jperlow - 03/09/09
You probably don't consider Murder to be an art form. Modern civilization cannot say the same of erotica, which is also an accepted part of numerous religions which have condemned murder.
11.1.1.1.1. If the joker is real, would that make murder morally good?
CobraA1 - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 09:06)
"Yes, but unless you're the Joker You probably don't consider Murder to be an art form."
Maybe I am the Joker >D.
Seriously, being an "art form" makes it somehow better and morally good?
You could theoretically make "art" out of anything. Does not make it any more ethical or moral.
Your reasoning is pathetically bad.
11.1.1.1.1.1. Morality, like art, is in the eye of the beholder.
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
The Supreme Court has repeatedly declared that pornography is protected by Free Speech.
But, as Jason points out "erotica" has been around since the beginning of civilization. Where you draw the line between "erotica" and pornography is entirely up to the individual.
Some would consider Michaelangelo's David to be pornographic. Others, might consider it erotic while most others look at it as ART.
From a legal stand-point, the line is drawn at the 'age of consent'. If you are a minor, the government assumes it must 'protect' you from exposure to pornography/erotica and, it is consider exploitation for a minor to take part in pornography/erotica because a minor is generally judge to be incapable of making their own decisions.
As a society, we are obsessed with nakedness and who can be naked in front of whom. This is probably because self-righteous people have been telling us for centuries that it is "wrong".
NOTE: Nowhere in Scripture can I find that GOD ever objected to our nakedness -- only to our promiscuity.
11.1.1.1.1.1.1. It's Not That Simple
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
For example take the recent case of an Australian man who was convicted on a misdemeanor charge for having "child pornography" on his computer...except that the only pictures he had of children were CARTOONS, specifically of various Simpson characters in the nude, and designed more for humor than erotica.
And then of course we have all the instances of parents accused of "abusing" their children for taking a few innocent nude pictures of their kid in a bathtub or out playing in the sprinkler.
And then of course there are people like me, who freely distribute any such innocent nude photographs we have of ourselves as a child, with the mentality that I would rather have pedos jerking off to pictures of me as a kid than have them molesting a child in real life. Is it "child pornography" if the child in the picture is no longer a child?
There are no simple answers and certainly no one is ever going to come to an all around agreement any time soon, but the bottom line is that many innocent people are being unjustly abused, slandered and accused by the current laws of the land.
11.1.1.1.2. Shrunken heads was considered an artform
alaniane@... - 03/10/09
in many places of the earth. Most of the heads were taken off of live victims; however, that hasn't made beheading your neighbor an acceptable practice. There have been thieves since the beginning of civilization, but try telling the judge that stealing the Camarro down the street is an acceptable practice since stealing has always been part of our society.
11.1.1.1.2.1. Theft
jperlow - 03/10/09
Has been unacceptable in practically every civilization in existence.
11.1.1.1.2.1.1. Actually theft has been condoned in many societies
alaniane@... - 03/10/09
Vikings plundered villages. The settlers routinely stole Indian land. Britain used piracy to loot Spanish galleons. History is replete where theft has been rationalized and even praised; however, that doesn't make it morally right.
11.1.1.1.2.1.2. It's not theft if it's the rich who are stealing....
EarFix - 04/28/09
Tell that to the US government and the Multinational Corporations setting its agenda....
Thieves and liars, the whole bunch...
11.1.1.1.3. . . . and now that I think of it . . .
CobraA1 - 03/10/09
. . . and now that I think of it . . . you remember the Romans? Gladiator fights, often with animals and people?
Definitely would be considered very immoral today. Again - historicity is not a valid moral argument.
11.1.1.2. Are you really equating...
JonA_z - 03/10/09
murder and porn?
Are you proposing we send people to jail (or put them to death for
pornography)?
If so, who do we send to prison (or execute)?
Those who make it? Producers, directors, actors, actresses (who, some
will argue, are really "victims" of the porn industry).
How about those who consume (view) it? After all, without the viewers
there wouldn't be much of a porn industry, if any.
What about "home-brewed" porn made by couples for their own
personal enjoyment? What if the authorities enter a home for another
legitimate reason (say, answering a burglary report by a neighbor
while the owners are away on vacation), and accidently discover some
couple's self-made porn. Should that couple be looking at jail time or
the death penalty?
11.1.1.2.1. No, he's equating the durability
alaniane@... - 03/10/09
of porn with the durability of murder. The one was arguing that since porn has been around for a "long time" (duration) that made it acceptable. His argument which is valid is that murder has also been around for a "long time" (duration). Your argument is equating the severity of the two which is quite different. Basically, his argument was pointing out the fallacy of legitimizing a practice because it has been around a long time whereas your rebuttal was saying that he shouldn't be equating the severity of porn and murder. In other words, you through up a straw argument since no one was equating the severity of the two forms of conduct.
11.1.1.2.2. You missed the point.
CobraA1 - 03/10/09
"Are you really equating...murder and porn?"
I am using a comparison to show that the "history" argument is a poor one. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should be morally acceptable.
"Are you proposing we send people to jail (or put them to death for pornography)?"
No. I am proposing we stop pretending historicity is a moral argument.
11.1.2. Nice litany
frgough - 03/09/09
of misogynistic ancient civilizations, all of which rotted and decayed from
within, in no small part as a result of depravity brought on by moral
decadence.
11.1.2.1. Rotted?
jperlow - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 08:34)
The last time I checked, each and every one of them lasted several times longer than our own modern civilization and democracy has existed, which isn't looking too great at the moment for all our moral superiority. As far as track records and longevity goes, I'd say they did pretty well.
11.1.2.1.1. Who says we're morally superior
frgough - 03/10/09
Study your history, particularly the fall of the roman empire. Hedonism
was a primary factor.
11.1.2.2. That's one interpretation of history
JonA_z - 03/10/09
Despite its almost universally held viewpoint, that view is one that
confuses cause and effect.
Those "civilizations" rotted from the inherent corruption of their
political systems... despotic, absolute rulerships (and bureaucracies
that supported them) that had little, if any, limits on their power.
IMHO, PCAAPCA (Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely)
The depravity and moral decadence was a result, not a cause, of those
"civilizations" rot and decay.
If history shows us anything, it's that if men (and women) are in a
position to do anything they please, they usually will. The founding
fathers knew this and it's why the Constitution is a blueprint for
limited government power.
For all the good it's done us.
11.1.3. Porn/slavery
Col Mustard - 03/09/09
It's part of our culture. It's in our DNA.
Especially if one can't get a female. By the way, slavery has been around a long time too
11.1.3.1. ridiculous
jperlow - 03/09/09
Lack of finding a mate has nothing to do with appreciation for erotica. Read some history or look at some fine works of art, please.
11.1.3.2. Porn/Slavery
Hate Malware - 07/02/09
Trying to justify your actions behind closed doors?
11.1.4. really?
Badgered - 03/10/09
Pornography has been around since the time of ancient civilizations -- the great kingdoms of Meso America, the Egyptians and the Persians, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Romans, and ancient China and India, Thailand and Japan, just to name a few. It's been around as long as we've painted icons on the walls of caves. It's part of our culture. It's in our DNA.
So has murder... doesn't make it any less repulsive.
11.1.5. Porn
jackdeth@... - 03/10/09
Just because it's been around a long time doesn't make it right and/or proper.
11.1.5.1. You Idiots Are Missing The Point
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09 (Edited: 03/11/09 @ 05:46)
The fact of the matter is...it ain't goin anywhere. Neither is murder, stealing, rape, slavery or any other overly retarded comparisons you want to try and draw. Porn is here to stay, it's a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry, with conservatives actually being the top purchasers of pornography in the US.
You can get up on your little moral high horse and prance around like a flaming fairy all you like, but it sure the hell isn't going to stop all of us who want porn and who think it's a healthy and necessary part of human existence, as has been proven by medical science, as well a psychology and sociology.
To think that you have some obligation or right to run around inflicting your own little backwards ideals onto others really is just the absolute height of arrogance. If *YOU* don't want to look at porn...hey, that's great...don't. But don't be gettin yer lil training pant.ies all up in a twist over those of us who do like it.
And if you just can't stand it, well you can go right on ahead and go live in a cave somewhere. Maybe go out and live with the Amish. Because the fact is if you don't like pornography (in *THIS* society)...YOU HAVE SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. No, really, your brain isn't wired correctly or something. Modern psychology, sociology and medical science easily prove that as fact. Now maybe you were psychologically beaten as a child to feel dirty every time you think of people naked...I don't know, but you sure the hell don't belong here with the rest of modern society. Murder isn't a multi-billion dollar a year industry...pornography is and it ain't goin anywhere, end of story.
11.1.5.2. Who defines "right" and "proper" ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... when acts between two consenting adults are depicted?
11.1.6. Rome
Otis Driftwood - 04/06/09 (Edited: 04/06/09 @ 05:57)
Go the famous the chapel, look at the porn behind the lecturn.
Hot stuff huh?
Guess popes and priests, nuns and the like all beam up with swollen private parts. No need for 72 virgins....they want 72 chior boys.
Sorry Catholics, just coudn't help myself. I'll ask Pop Brady how many Our Fathers I'll owe for that one.
11.1.7. Amazing...........
Budman o Riverside - 07/05/09
These threads crack me up to no end....
I could have sworn that the blog was about home building a computer.........
11.2. Extreme PCs
ddg4005 - 08/13/09
Thank you. You said everything I was thinking after reading this article. I learned to build computers not to go extreme but to get the best bang for my dollars. Home-brewed boxes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. In fact I think more people are building their systems now than 5-10 years ago. I don't have any statistics to prove this but I've noticed more people buying mid-range ATI and Nvidia cards from Best Buy recently. And they ain't buying them for some HP or Dell only.
12. The price of windows killed me from building
Randalllind - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 12:41)
I can build a pc for $500 with no software. I can get an HP for same price with a free copy of Vista.
So why would someone pay me double for a PC with Vista? What I do now is buy a HP off the shelf up the memory, add a new video card and I am good to go for myself.
WTF unless you are rich an have nothing better to spend your money on pay $16k for a machine?
12.1. On the other hand...
bswiss - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 04:38)
... you could build your own box for $500, and install some flavor of Linux; then you'd have better hardware and a better OS, and (bonus) a ship-load of useful apps, too.
What!? Somebody had to say it!
12.1.1. Re; On the other hand
Col Mustard - 03/09/09
Yes to please installs Ubuntu which have many nice aps making peoples most happy and make more monies for europes too and also take out nasty porns
12.1.2. There are more than one idiots that would say it...
LeeC - 03/10/09
Yeah, you build a professional quality PC and then put a shareware quality OS on it. That's like buying a Ferrari body and putting a Lego engine in it.
If you're happy with shareware quality software, then that's fine, but don't go touting it as "something better", because it simply isn't.
12.1.2.1. I've used both OSs for many years.
bswiss - 03/10/09
I've been using Windows since Win '95 (DOS before that) and admin-ed for a small workplace even, and I've been using Linux since 2000. I have actual experience with both as desktop and small-network OSs, so I have solid grounds to assert that of the two, it's Windows which is the "shareware quality software".
But don't take my word for it, I'm not much more than a hobbyist with some practical experience. Ask companies like Ernie Ball. Ask towns like Largo, Florida (using Linux longer than I have), or cities like Munich, Germany. And don't forget to ask huge corporations like Google, Amazon, IBM. Ask major research labs like Lawrence Livermore, NASA, NOAA, etc. Check the Top 500 super-computer listing. Better yet, compare how well Linux does the day-to-day job for the NYSE even when the going gets tough, against how well Windows does (not) manage running the London Stock Exchange under heavy loads.
I don't claim to be an "IT professional" -- but I can tell the difference between "professional quality" and "heavily marketed". You imply that makes me an idiot. I'd argue that it's people who, even when faced with hard evidence, can't tell the difference, who are the real idiots.
12.1.2.1.1. *sigh* Children, Children...
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
Both operating systems are good for a variety of reasons. Now, certainly anyone touting Linux as a viable desktop alternative is quite clearly a complete moron of the highest order, *HOWEVER* Linux does have some *VERY* specific applications to which it greatly excels, mostly in the realm of symmetric multiprocessing clusters and instantly bootable, micro operating system capabilities for use in say your microwave oven or your television set.
As far as desktop environment Windows or the MacOS is the way to go, mostly in that they'll always be first in line for new software technology because they have the largest market shares, more so for Windows than the MacOS, although at this point they're pretty comparable. A perfect example is Flash, where for quite some time Linux was literary YEARS behind on upgrades and really, the only reason Linux finally got proper Flash support is because Adobe/Macromedia was feeling generous and took pity upon the idiots trying to use the thing as a desktop computer. That's just one example of course, there are *LOTS* of others and there will always continue to be more. Basically if you try to use it as a desktop environment you're going to be playing the "catch up" game for the rest of your life.
Most of the morons trying to use Linux as a desktop environment are only doing it because it's "cool" to hate Microsoft and oh, what a special little unique snowflake they are for running an off the wall operating system, they must be *SO* technologically inclined! *snicker*
12.1.2.1.2. The Munich project fell behind ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... and is still not done because Linux on the desktop proved to be unsuitable in meeting many of their mission-critical needs. In a limited environment, desktop Linux can meet many needs but damned near every application available for Linux is also ported to Windows. The opposite is simply not the case for many, many widely used applications which are available for Windows or Macintosh.
Those big corporations of which you spoke use Linux for database servers and web hosting as well as researh. These are roles for which Linux is well-suited. It is naive to think that these same corporations don't also have a boatload of Windows desktops which are being used by their non-IT staff.
12.1.2.1.2.1. You *are* behind the times, aren't you?
bswiss - 03/12/09 (Edited: 03/12/09 @ 03:50)
March 29, 2006
Munich Linux migration delayed by 'PR stunt'
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-6055622-7.html
26.10.2006
Full steam ahead for Linux in Munich
http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/80071
There were software-patent policy issues , Windows lock-in issues, and the usual MS political shenanigans, which together delayed the deployment at least a year, but in the end the Germans have been so pleased with the results, that since then they've been recommending Linux to other governments (and other governments have been sending study-groups over to learn how to do it right). Vienna, Paris, the French government and Gendarmerie (French police: we saved millions of euros by adopting Ubuntu http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/french-police-saves-millions-of-euros-by-adopting-ubuntu.ars), the Swiss, the Norwegians, the Spanish have all been reporting satisfaction with their Linux conversions.
12.2. Paying Money?!
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
For software?!
LOL...oh how perfectly quaint.
*pats you on the head*
^__^
Yer cute...not all that bright though...
13. RE: Extreme PCs
gmclean - 03/09/09
Yet again Jason you prove you have no idea what your talking about. I really have a hard time believing you've ever built your own PC. Maybe replaced memory or a graphics card but I doubt it ever went beyond that or you wouldn't post the nonsense that you do.
First of all I fail to understand what companies like Puget systems have to do with the homebrewers. These "enthusiast" systems have always been for those with more money than brains. A homebrewer could build similiar systems for usually less than half the cost these high end systems.
The incentive for most homebrewers was not so much saving money (although this certainly was a side benefit) but to build the system we wanted to our own exacting specs. We'd load the OS of our choice and installed only the software we choose, not what the OEM was getting paid to put on their machines.
We were never a large segment of the market and frankly I don't see that changing. As for the current economy, it won't last forever. Eventually things will get better and those companies that survive this downturn will be a good position to profit when the economy eventually comes back.
13.1. Buildling my own PC's
jperlow - 03/09/09 (Edited: 03/09/09 @ 01:15)
Not only did I build my own PCs for at least 15 years -- but I did board level soldering and maintenance on systems that pre-dated "PCs". Ever heard of an Altos? Familiar with EEPROM burners? Ever touched Micro Channel or EISA hardware? Ever ran a PC support department for a 5000+ desktop organization? Do you know what RLL and MFM means? Have you ever used a glue gun to secure power supply contacts to a PCB prior to Molex connectors? Have you ever created a Token-Ring network? Memorized the acceptable memory ranges and interrupts for an NE2000 or a 3C509 for QEMM386?
I have built from scratch 386s, 486, Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium III, Pentium 4, NexGen, Cyrix, PowerPC, DEC Alpha, AMD64, Opteron and Xeon-based systems, way up until 2007.
And that's all I'm willing to date myself.
13.1.1. Ooooooh, a glue gun.... wow!!!
LeeC - 03/10/09
Whoop-dee-doo, and you now blog for an amateur tech site, get over yourself.
You memorised some memory ranges, that's so useful when talking about PC enthusiasts. I can remember some memory ranges, from the ZX Spectrum BIOS, along with a full set of Z80 mnemonics, memory maps, USR calls and screen adresses... and the same for the C64 and the 6502 instruction set and memory layout, interrupts, shadow ram paging addresses etc...
Doesn't make me any more qualified on an enthusiasts building habits than you, just because I can remember more numbers.
Your article is based on flawed assumptions that people are home building PC's, simply to compete with shop sold PC's. People like myself are custom building PC's to exact spec machines, to provide the most suitable platform for the intended use.
If you're happy to trust the second rate, cheap components that people like Dell use, then fine, you won't find Tom's Hardware's "Top Choice" in them though, that's for sure.
Some people want specific motherboards, specific RAM, specific video cards. Shops generally don't provide that option unless you buy the "shop's own" systems and configure them. Then you have to trust the people in the shops to know what they are doing with system building and the simple fact is, most of them don't. I wouldn't trust most of them with a till keyboard, never mind a computer keyboard.
PC homebrewing is a based on competence (of choosing and assembling the right parts), comfort (with handling components) and choice (of getting the exact system you want).
People don't stop buying HiFi separates because you can get an all-in-one that "plays music and films for ?300". They buy separates to get the system they want, they will choose, buy and build their HiFi system, just as PC enthusiasts will do with their PC.
13.1.1.1. Nice job putting it into the right words
Speednet - 03/11/09
I couldn't agree more! The fact that this blog post does not recognize the actual reasons for building your own boxes makes it all the more specious.
It is the exact opposite of reality: for those who need a specific setup, it is much less expensive to build your own, rather than accepting whatever bundle the manufacturer can put together.
Or, in the case of Mr. Costco, perhaps the commodity motherboard in his so-called barebones PC does not support the technologies (or combinations thereof) that you need.
The funny thing is that he calls PCs sold at Costco "barebones". I'm a Costco member, and I go there all the time. Last I checked there is nothing equatable to a barebones setup sold at Costco. They are mainly pre-configured mass-produced bundles put together by the larger manufacturers, similar to the way Home Depot has partnerships with tools manufacturers.
Just for the record, "barebones" PCs are sold without CPU, memory, drives, etc. They are not low-end, under-powered bundles that come with everything including keyboard, mouse, monitor, OS installation, and bloatware.
13.1.2. So...
djchandler - 03/10/09
Why isn't there any gray in your beard in your picture? Using Just For Men?
I never used QEMM386, but I know what you mean on the Novell and 3Com cards. Your experience in building boxes seems about as lengthy as mine. I have 4.5 grandchildren.
13.1.2.1. Grey Beard
jperlow - 03/11/09
My wife pulls them out and the photo was taken after a fresh haircut.
13.2. RE: Building Extreme PCs
wolflight - 07/21/09
"The incentive for most homebrewers was not so much saving money (although this certainly was a side benefit) but to build the system we wanted to our own exacting specs. We'd load the OS of our choice and installed only the software we choose, not what the OEM was getting paid to put on their machines."
gmclean,
As a person who has home-built both my own and my wife's computers from parts, I agree with you. The point of home building a PC is to be able to pick exactly the parts you want, find them at a reasonable price (either online or at a brick-and-mortar store), and then put it in exactly the case of your choice. Then you can put in the OS of your choice and decide exactly what software to install on it. I originally built my system in 2003 and I'm on version 2 of that computer now. It's a decent mid-range system that does need some upgrading, but runs almost any modern software. I fail to see the point of trying to have the latest and greatest system with the fastest everything, unless you are either a serious software developer, graphic artist (in which case you're probably using a high end Mac computer), or high end gamer.
If I could build my dream system, it would have a 3.0 Ghz or higher dual-core AMD processor, 500 GB or larger hard drive, two hi-speed DVD burners, a multi-card reader that takes 3.5" floppies as well (as those are still useful at times), upper end Creative sound-card, upper end Nvidia video-card and would be running Windows XP SP3, which is the most stable MS OS yet, in my view.
Finally, you're right that home builders will never be a large part of the market and that this won't likely change. There will always be a market for home building your own PC, as that does save a person lots of money overall.
14. The inverse Moore's law of applications is no more.
TripleII - 03/09/09
The problem is, there was always the NEED for the superpowerful. It was only in the last 3 years or so that HD video can now be rendered quite nicely with embedded graphics cards. Gone is the day where ethernet or wirelss transfer took lots of CPU and was bottlenecked by the BUS. During transfer of an ISO, I get ~800Kbytes/sec wirelessly and CPU remains pegged at a massive 3.5%.
Seriously, games can still drive the high end, but the Wii turned on it's head that ultra real is needed to have fun. Cartoon characters are just as fun. On the web, we have flash, perhaps one of the least efficient (in terms of CPU) rendering technologies and any netbook handles it (some with ease, maybe a little longer with a 1st gen EEE).
Simply put, where are the mainstream (80% plus) apps that are must have the general population is missing? When even video editing works on an Acer Aspire One (which I do), what's the driving force behind needed horsepower.
I will admit, the AV industry has done an impressive job eating CPU cycles emulating a lack of power.
I will summarize the problem. Any machine out there, like this one,
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9170835&st=emachine&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1218043607320
If it runs, just runs, however slowly, Vista it is a a powerful workstation when you slide Linux on it and even more telling, it WILL be a fast workstation once Windows 7 is sold on it. I wanted to bold the Windows 7 part because I don't want an OS war, Windows 7 will make all this hardware even faster for the home user.
Seriously, I have exactly similar, it is my workstation that I compile on, I can never bog it down with anything except compiles (which bogs down my remove Sun workstations when I do an overnight compile when needed)
TripleII
14.1. So do a little labor and save $100.00
djchandler - 03/10/09
"I will summarize the problem. Any machine out there, like this one,
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9170835&st=emachine&lp=2&type=product&cp=1&id=1218043607320"
You can build an equivalent box, sans software, for about $100.00 less. Cheapest components (eMachines equivalent) @ Newegg:
Case/PS $30.00 (420 or 430 watt)
MB $48.00 (AsRock N61P-S)
CPU $42.00 (heatsink, fan) LE-1640
RAM $20.00 (2x1gb DDR2 800) Kingston
HD $42.00 (7200rpm SATAII 160gb) WD
DVD_RW $21.00 HP DVD1035 OEM
Card Rdr $10.00 (supports 52 mem. card types)
SPKRS $23.00 Logitech S-220 OEM 2.1
KB/Mouse $17.00 MS basic keyboard and mouse
sub-total-$253.00 less shipping and sales tax where applicable
You could spend a lot less on speakers, as low as $7.00. I probably have better ones gathering dust than the ones you'll get with the eMachines box.
Linux or BSD is free, if you know how/where to get it.
Even on a really cheap box, the frugal can still save money. Savings get better as specs go up.
14.1.1. Less shipping and tax?
jperlow - 03/11/09
sub-total-$253.00 less shipping and sales tax where applicable
And how much did you actually save, 60 bucks? If that? after how many hours of your time? Several hours of my time is worth a lot more than 60 bucks.
14.1.1.1. Not If You Enjoy Doing It
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
And if you don't...um...what the hell are you doing here? I think the Britney Spears forum is over -> that way. Don't let the door hit ya on the ass on yer way out, diddums.
PS - shipping is usually ~very~ cheap and in many cases free if you spend at least $50...unless you want it like uber over night priority, then it gets expensive.
14.1.1.1.1. This article has nothing to do with enjoyment
jperlow - 03/11/09
It has to do with costs and the consequences of a recession on an industry that was already in decline. You did not read the article, and if you did, you didn't understand what I said.
Plenty of people do things because they enjoy them, not because they are cheaper. I buy produce from independent grocery stores and spend more money on higher quality meats and seafood from specialty purveyors because I enjoy cooking. I could easily buy cheap, lower quality stuff from supermarkets, but I don't.
However, my enjoyment of said activity has no bearing on the fact that the food industry is now highly commoditized and how scarce quality ingredients have become and how many local farmers and purveyors and small shops continue to go out of business.
14.1.1.1.1.1. The Article Has Everything To Do With Enjoyment
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
The author is just using the economic "crisis" as a convenient and rather lame excuse to try and hide the fact that he just doesn't enjoy doing it any longer. If he ~truly~ enjoyed doing it...no economic "crisis" would matter at all, even if the delusion of it supposedly costing more (which it doesn't) magically came true. And if he doesn't enjoy it...I'm sorry, but yer in the wrong business, you probably thought you could "get rich quick" by getting in on that whole "Intarwebs thang", only to find yourself woefully outclassed in every direction imaginable by people who *ACTUALLY* enjoy doing it. As I said before, you simply don't belong here if you don't enjoy this stuff.
14.1.1.1.1.1.1. I fail to see
jperlow - 03/11/09
How PC homebrewing is by definition mutally inclusive to enjoyment of technology. For many of us it was an issue of practicality and lowering the cost of entry. For a long time there was substantial money to be saved. Now that is no longer the case. If you legitimately enjoy it, fine. Many of us just did it because it was cheaper. Returning blown components to several different vendors from a failed build? Dealing with piecemeal RMAs? You can call that enjoyment, I won't.
There are -many- aspects of computing technology that can be enjoyed. Homebrewing your own PC is just one of the many technology pursuits I simply no longer have the time and inclination for because I see no tangible gains from it if I can buy a similar quality computer from a name brand manufacturer at virtually identical cost that it would take for me to piece one together.
Enjoyment of an activity has -nothing- to do with skill at the same activity either. In the mid-90s I was able to field strip a Compaq Proliant 5000 server and reassemble it in under 45 minutes. Was I skilled at it? Extremely. Did I like doing it? No. I have plenty of friends who are brilliant attorneys and accountants. Do they like their work? A lot of them hate it. They do it for the money. Doesn't make them any less skilled or motivated to do their jobs.
There are many aspects of computing I enjoy. Searching the web for parts, reading dozens of reviews for each one and spending hours upon hours researching how best of breed components would interact with each other on hobbyist forums when I could just buy the same exact equipment from HP or Dell? Not on my list. Particularly, if as you say, the lifespan of said PC is 2 years and are dirt cheap. If PCs are now replaceable like toasters, then why put in all the effort?
15. Extreme PCs may be gone...
meechp123 - 03/09/09
but there still is a market for custom built, inexpensive computers. All around Delaware, I see signs that say Desktop's for $125, Laptop's for $225. People are buying these cheap computers because they can afford them. Those selling the computers are buying them and fixing them up.
I never got into the "Extreme" PC hobby anyway. Most users won't either.
Also, why is everyone being so damn...dismal lately!? The economy sucks and everyone (including the author of this article) is acting like the end is near.
Things will get better people.
16. History repeats itself
colin@... - 03/09/09
Extreme PCs and homebrews won't disappear. The car market had ups and downs over the last 100+ years. Duesy and Bugatti got beat by more practical Fords and Chevys which in turn got "outpracticaled" by Honda and Toyota as each economic cycle took hold leading us to the luxury and performance in the 90s and 00s.
The car aftermarket industry has followed the same cycle for the gearheads who want to go faster than the factory allows.
Geeks and gearheads are the same character. As soon as they get their day jobs and lives settled they'll be back at their favourite parts store looking for another 10th.
Speaking of which, I have a video editing / gaming box to build and the Honda's out of warranty so I could muck around with the ECU. Parts are cheap now... Hmmmm...
17. While I've still got a pulse, I will not stop
Custard_over_2x_Pie - 03/09/09
Sure laptops and green issues are everywhere you turn. But it shouldn't spoil the enjoyment, for those like to get the most out of their hardware.
17.1. Actually With Nano and Pico ITX...
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
You could create your own laptop quite easily or even a hand held PC device...given enough skill and knowledge.
That's very much likely going to be the new market for home brew enthusiast, we'll start seeing all sorts of custom parts and such for building your own smart phone, hand held gaming system, mini video player or whatever.
18. Another factor
No_Ax_to_Grind - 03/09/09
You build your $16K screamer and its wonderful, until Intel, AMD and others refresh the hardware and suddenly your screamer is just another used PC worth a few hundred dollars on a good day.
19. Maybe we need to refocus...
tokalion - 03/09/09
Hm-m-m..I just had fun building a PC with HDMI video out in a 'receiver-like' case to connect directly to my LCD TV for streaming video (netflix, hulu, etc), watching DVDs, reading e-mail, surfing net...
Now having a great time laying on my living room floor next to my fireplace actively participating in my entertainment experience...
20. RE: Extreme PCs and
perversion2003@... - 03/09/09
My first real computer was Dell P3 600 that I literally found in the trash. It was in my dumpster, I plugged it in and it worked. It's been upgraded some (more memory) but it's the computer my some and granddaughter use all the time. I built my present computer, not necessary to save money, but to see if I could do it. It worked as soon as I powered up and made me feel great. People who build for themselves are trying to get more for less.
21. PC makers offer 1 year warranties...BUT...
Feldwebel Wolfenstool - 03/09/09
...if you get a local to cobble a system together for you, the components you buy separately usually have really good 3 year guarantees.
21.1. Not usually true
jperlow - 03/09/09
If they are using "White Box" or "OEM" parts bought in bulk for system builders, they usually do not have the same warranty as retail boxed parts. At best, a 1 year warranty. Usually less.
21.1.1. ...well...I don't know where you shop, BUT...
Feldwebel Wolfenstool - 03/10/09
My new gear....ATI 4850, 2 years.
Intel 920, 3 years.
Giga x58 ds4, 3 years.
HDD's, 2 years(used to be 5).
OCZ ram, Lifetime.
Only $70 to slap it into my Antec case and install Vista. The local yokel pc builders here use retail boxed parts.
22. Pornography
frgough - 03/09/09
the idea that objectifying women is healthy because certain
men are slaves to their biological urges is offensive in the
extreme.
22.1. Biological Urges
jperlow - 03/09/09
Are common to -both- sexes.
22.1.1. Which, of course, explains
frgough - 03/10/09
why something like 90% of all pornography is geared to heterosexual and
homosexual men.
Of course, the whole idea that pornography is healthy is disgusting. Talk
to a marriage counselor at what pornography does to the ability to have
healthy relationships.
22.1.1.1. Obsession with pornography is ...
mwagner@... - 03/11/09
... is what damages relationships.
And the obsession originates from societal taboos. (Tell an adolescent male he can't do something and he wants to do it all that much more.) Call it erotica and it takes on a whole new meaning. Which is which? It's in the eye of the beholder.
Countries with the healthiest attitudes about sex and nudity have the fewest problems with regard to sex offenders and child molestation.
Want an example? The Catholic Church tells priests they cannot have heterosexual sex but they tolerate and protect priests who molest male children.
Creating unrealistic and unenforceable taboos is what leads to the use of pornography in the first place. Otherwise, it is really just erotica.
23. This is a joke, right?
Dorkyman - 03/09/09
You're tweaking the community, right? Is this April 1st?
Do you have ANY statistics that back up your claim at all?
23.1. Statistics? Open your eyes because
moralesjl15@... - 03/10/09
this is pretty much common knowledge. Hit tigerdirect or newegg or any other site that sells OEM parts...
Configure your own box, using OEM parts, look at the configuration, then go get same configuration with a premade box, you might save a few bucks getting the premade box.
Be it, gateway, dell (not so likely as dell pc's are more expensive but not so much as of late), emachines, systemax, or whatever other lower end brand, or even unknown brands... making your own is not what it used to be.
We used to make a better machine spending less money than it would take to purchase one out there with lower specs... now days, you go out there and buy a premade machine requiring no OEM parts to install from your part and you can easily spend less than making your own, and you get similar or same (sometimes better) specs on that premade box...
Don't ask for statistics man, get out there and see for yourself, because it is already there, economics are hitting it all into place... go see and go figure.
24. Now this is what I call homebrew
Alan Smithie - 03/10/09 (Edited: 03/10/09 @ 12:55)
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/10/ps3_supercomputer
24.1. re: Now this is what I call homebrew
cbradshaw@... - 03/10/09
Now that is a neat use of PS3s!!! Good for him.
25. Regardless of the economy...
Comnenus - 03/10/09
Even in a good economy I can't justify a $16,000 machine. The only thing I can see this for is some really high end number crunching or hollywood special effects editing...
If this is going to a home user, what a waste.
26. You should still build your own
sorahl@... - 03/10/09
If you care what parts go in your pc then you have no alternative but to build your own. I have repeatedly tried to put together pc's on manufacturers websites only to have the price go super high and not include every specific part that I want by a specific maker.
If you care about who makes your cpu, your mb, your sound, video, memory, hard drive, etc you need to build your own. We have always been a relatively small percentage but that doesn't mean we are going away.
I have never just upgraded for the sake of upgrading but I can't buy a desktop pc from someone else and spend the same amount of money to get lesser quality components. That is a poor decision in this or any other economy.
26.1. Build for quality - that's an "extreme" idea
IAFarm2 - 03/10/09
it's no different to build your own machine for the quality of its components than to build a "street rod" for the same reason - probably not many more people in one group than the other , but it's still significant and about the 'perceived value received" not only the "high performance" or the "low cost" -- "high performance" to one might be the "lowest cost" to put a machine together for a specific purpose ( value ) in one case and for the "lowest energy consumed to accomplish a set of tasks" in another -- not likely to be bought "off the shelf" at COSTCO or from the choices offered at Dell, HP, etc.
26.2. exactly, build it yourself
mdunakin13 - 03/10/09
Sheesh, not sure where all this info is coming from, but from all my friends and people I know who like to build their own systems, nothing has changed and probably never will.
You either enjoy building your own custom systems that let you get EXACTLY what you want in it, brands, configurations, etc., or you like some store bought, pre-made puter that ALSO always has (or generally has) their own idiot version of the OS that completely sucks and installs gallons and gallons of crud all over scattered through out your entire puter, or you don't! I see my friends who end up buying some prebuilt system, like say, DEL or even worse, cheaper systems like ACER and so on and later, when they need to fix something on it, and worse, possibly have to reinstall the OS, they almost always end up screwed.
For two reasons, one, most the time when you buy those prebuilt systems, they rarely if ever give you the install disk, and second, half the time they can't get the thing to install and end up calling me over to see if I can fix things for them. I think the ONLY system I would ever buy that is prebuilt, would be a laptop, but that's mainly because you really have no other choices in teh matter.
I won't be chilling on building my own systems ever, or as long as I can always have the choice to build them on my own and I highly doubt most other people that love to have a "choice" as to what goes into their systems, will never stop either.
BTW, porno????
Sorry, but that was the lamest anology I've ever heard of, sorry, but true and pretty gross too.
27. RE: Extreme PCs and
janeadct@... - 03/10/09
I think the homebrews will continue as long as parts are being produced for us to do it. I've never bought a desktop from a company. First was built by a friend and I've built my own ever since. Not going to stop now.
Med
28. Chicken Breast Upgrades?
cgarrett - 03/10/09
You buy chicken breasts at Costco and then you buy upgrades for in on the Internet? No doubt some shady spam talking of breast enlargement.
29. RE: Extreme PCs and $5000 cell phones?
ahebra@... - 03/10/09
You are so wrong. I see people buying $5000 "limited edition" cell phones, $10,000 "spinning wheels" for the family Hummer, etc. Some people have the money and the desire to have the best, the unique, the differentiators. Having an $16k Extreme PC in the den is no different. God bless them and please spend your money, the economy needs it.
30. What killed the home builder..
20kwfence - 03/10/09
I've always built my own pc's. That is, until now. The change for me was based on software prices, not hardware. Used to be able to get the os for less than 10% of the price of the system. Now, it's several times that. There's no way I can come close to the $599 oem system to build from when I have to buy the os.
30.1. Re: What killed the home builder
bb_apptix - 03/10/09
I agree that the OS (read Windows) and software prices are out of line, but I can still build a better PC than one I can buy for $600. Four hundred bucks buys a nice DC CPU and lots of RAM and HDD.
All of my PCs are home built, including two this year.
Having OS and SW such as Linux and OpenOffice out there helps.
31. RE: Extreme PCs and Homebrewing
1ceman - 03/10/09
No matter how fast or powerful a PC is, it will be slowed down by inferior software and top-heavy operating systems - like driving a Ferrari Testarossa in bumper-to-bumper midtown traffic.
Pressure should be but on software authors, including Microsoft and all the independent outfits. Let's emulate the glory days of the Commodore 64, when all manner of activities were squeezed into miniscule memory via Assembler code.
32. POWER SUPPLIES - WILL NOT BUY COSTCO/CHEAP!
scott1329 - 03/10/09
No, as long as cheap power supplies exist, I will NEVER EVER buy any PC I see for sale in Wal-Mart, etc. I will build my own and put a good power supply in it. Actually, a recession is a good time to build your own PC that will last much longer than the Acer/HP/etc junk you get in stores, because your home-build PC can have best-of-breed parts that will last.
Also, who wants the cheap disk drives they put in those PCs? Not me.
32.1. Never shop at Costco...
agohige - 03/10/09
I do not trust what is sold there. Look at what happened over Christmas with all the failures of TV's. All from Costco. Companies dump their 3rds and worse to Costco. You get what you pay for... It is like buying Snap-on tools, or going to J-Random Chinese tool shop and buying junk tools there. They will work for a while, may round off nuts, but you did save money...
33. "pornography is healthy"
davidr69 - 03/10/09
In other words, you can't get a woman (other than paying for one). I see animals taking care of their primal urges ... with the opposite gender of their species, not with pornography. The fact that you cannot accomplish the same is no justification for pornography.
Such a statement has no place in what is supposedly a professional and reputable organization (Ziff Davis).
33.1. Women
jperlow - 03/10/09
In other words, you can't get a woman
You got that right. My wife would be really pissed.
33.2. Healthy Porn? Not!!
jackdeth@... - 03/10/09
I think he's been looking at centerfolds of too many "extreme" PC's for too long.
See what playing with Microsoft will do to you? That's why you should use something nice and clean....like Linux. lol
33.3. Wow, Boy Somebody Sure Is Living In A Bubble
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
Couples actually make up a *HUGE* portion of the pornography market and most of those that weren't bible beaten as children to only accept the missionary position highly enjoy pornography as a way of spicing up their relationship, trying new things, even as a form of forplay. You ~obviously~ haven't ever been in a ~real~ relationship if you don't know this.
34. Better Software
bryans501 - 03/10/09
Let's put the same passion that we used to have around building hardware systems into buiding SMART software that actually uses the multiple processor cores and optimizes use of the existing hardware. We could improve our software to be multi-threaded and use multiple cores to be much faster.
35. I think Both are still Alive
JEFFSGTP - 03/10/09
I have admittedly NEVER built an EXTREME PC, nor will I probably ever (or buy one for that matter) as the $$,$$$ price tag is just too high...is there a place for them, yes..your own article shows a company that still produces them for people, granted not many but a few. I have however just completed a custom PC build that cost me around $650 total (running XP Pro, which I already had)...now I searched, I ebay'ed, etc...if I were to have bought all those things at retail vs searching every corner of the web to find best deals/discounts it would have ran me over a grand easy. For me, I stepped away from OEM and happily...this was the first PC I have built, and aside from the major step up in performance vs my OEM (admittedly a few years old), its was also very enjoyable to build and I have something that I can look at(and use) and say I built that!...
My system:
Thermaltake Gaming Case (black Edition)
Nvidia 680i Motherboard
Nvidia 9600 GT OC
Intel Q6600 (G0 Stepping)
Vantec Big Typhoon VX CPU Cooler
Sony SATA DVD/CD RW Drive
4GB of OCZ Fatal1ty RAM
(got a deal on it, not that hyped about the "Fatal1ty" thing to "have to have it")
250GB SATA HDD
(got for next to nothing at Circuit city close out locally.)
Now the above system isn't the most Extreme PC, probably more along the lines of a mid-level Gaming rig at best, but I also have the ability to overclock its components (CPU/Graphics Cards) as well to extend the useful performance life out of it...which is something that I havn't seen the ability to do with most OEM PC's that you can buy at the likes of large retail outlets. My point with all this is Home Brew Building isn't "Just" about lowest cost and warranties, its pride in your work, ability to buy parts and pieces anywhere you want for the best deal, and ability to tweak it as well.
-- Jeff W.
Texas
36. RE: Extreme PCs and
jaosnfehrs - 03/10/09
I think Jason is right on. I have always lived on the trailing
edge of technology and have always looked for the bargin
bin and the toss-outs hoping to make something of them. I
see the economy moving this way. There was a boom and
now the hardware that people have gotten rid of is powerful
enough to do most things for most people. People are
holding on to computer longer and opting more for used
portables than new computers.
37. RE: Extreme PCs and
fleitas@... - 03/10/09
I'll stick to building my own as I have for 14 years. I know what I'm putting in and how its going in. Mass produced ready mades are finally competing with home builts but only becuase of the crummy economy. Let the economy rev up and see if behemoth corporations will continue to "give away" deals. Plus, OEM copies of HOME anything and trialware mixed with crudware does not a system make. Guarantees on HD's and MB's are pretty good. I simply call myself if something screws up.
37.1. Hitachi just laid off...
agohige - 03/10/09
Out here, Hitachi (they bought the IBM HDD plant in San Jose, CA) just laid off about 20%. SDD and low end systems have hit their pockets. Oh but do not worry, the exec's all got their bonuses...
38. Boo Hoo
ferrum26 - 03/10/09
People really need to get over the economy. Yes, it sucks. I don't need to hear it from where I go to get info on technology. No one buys every fancy piece of kit they read about. That doesn't mean that some won't, and it doesn't mean that tech writers should quit writing about it.
39. Building one now...
agohige - 03/10/09
It is about the joy of building, not the money. it is the satisfaction of doing it. Instead of going to movies, or out for a drive, I relax and build work on my PC. Also fixing up old ones for Churches and such... I NEVER buy at Costco. I know what quality of goods we use to sell them (3rds or worse) and sometimes I will start with an off the shelf and then modify it. Disposable income? Hah! It is where you spend your entertainment dollar...
40. Of course I disagree
sysop-dr - 03/10/09
I am sorry for all those people out there who are losing their jobs but for those of us who have been building our own systems for 30 years now (1978 I built my first from parts, soldering them onto the motherboard) we will not stop building them ourselves.
OK we might have to eat KD for a month or two, but I suspect that we have enough resources and wherewithal to be able to keep our income up there enough to do this.
Like we did in the 80's and 90's those of us who are hard core will go back to building and repairing our friends and neighbors systems in our basements; and with what we can make from that will have enough to build our own. I can still make a basic PC cheaper then dell and my users know me and will always get better service from me, even if they get machines elsewhere. So it may come down to a pot of chicken soup for ridding your system from malware or I fix your computer, you tune up my car but the real computer guy will always have people who need their computer fixed as long as people need their computers. I might even become the neighborhood access point and let people piggyback their VOIP over my wireless. So all you guys out there with no money coming in but skills, get your neighbors off cable and AT&T and well you might have to upgrade your connection to the best you can get but you can make it work for you, just be honest with your neighbors and they will remain loyal, even after the recession is over.
Like I said, us real hard core computer geeks can always come up with some way to use our computers to make enough cash to always be building our own.
41. RE: Extreme PCs and
matlen - 03/10/09
I built my last computer with parts that were above average than most "out-of-the-box" systems for about half-the-cost. I think instead of viewing PC-custom building exclusively through the lens of "extreme" and more along the lines of "best bang for the buck" you do your readership and the industry a greater service.
42. Upgrading less often, but still upgrading
sbf95070 - 03/10/09
I went through my own Costco phase, but decided that I really don't like the fact that they skimp on power supplies and drive slots in the case.
I last built a system from scratch to do video editing about a year ago. The whole thing was around $1000, so it is more 'performance computing' than 'max computing', but I really like the machine I built.
I'll probably upgrade one of my existing systems with new MB, graphics etc in the next few months. So I would say, I still build my own, I just do it on a 1-2 year cycle rather than the 6 months that you suggest.
I just find that when you buy one of the under $500 machines, you get what you pay for and for higher end machines I can build what I want almost as cheaply as buying a higher end machine from Dell or HP.
42.1. Upgrading Out of Necessity
ememi@... - 03/10/09
If you are a gamer, chances are you'll upgrade your graphics card quite often as the deals and capabilities keep getting better. Now, we are having to upgrade processors so we don't slow down our graphics cards and multi-core is becoming more popular in gaming as well as video. Although the economy may slow purchases, I think the computer has become a household tool and there is a certain degree of satisfaction in building it yourself. Likewise, if you overclock then most store bought PC would cost a small fortune to get a system that is clocked high, while most overclockers use middle of the road processors and tweak to high range levels .. at least that is my case and unless you have one of the high branded versions, overclocking is usually not an option with store bought PCs. I think people will keep building their own regardless what happens to economy and people can gradually build to the top end if they want ... At the initial cost is lower when you build.
43. Homebrewing not dead yet . . .neither will extreme be.
zarvos - 03/10/09
Can you afford a Lamborghini or Ferarri? But you still like to read about them don't you? You still like to read the tech specs, don't you? People still like to hope and dream, especially in these tough times. Sure, I can't afford (or interested in buying) a $16,000 extreme machine, but I'd still be intrigued enough to read about it. There might be some information I can apply for my homebuilding purposes on my next box. I've even maxed out specs on Dells and Alienwares, just to see their prices and how I could do as much, or better, for a third of their price.
44. RE: Extreme PCs and
Wheelzup - 03/10/09 (Edited: 03/10/09 @ 10:08)
I think the days of $16,000 personal computers are well on the way out. But the home-brewed systems will continue since they can be put together to meet ones specific needs, you are your own tech support, and with that the hassle of long hold times on the phone are gone along with people on the other end of that call who don't speak English very well.
45. 16k for 1 or 16k for 12 or more PC's
SirCatlord - 03/10/09
Bleh.
The whole rant is about some guy that blew 16k for one PC. You happy now?
You can blow 1.5 Mil on a fast car, and guess what?? My $800 subaru will still go from point A to point B just as well as the $1.5 mil car. Big whoop.
"I just spent 4k on an alienware"
"How many PC's did you get?"
"One"
"Well, buddy ..you got ripped. 4k will get you about 3 machines at wickedmachines.com and mine cost $1700, thats adding a bunch of lights, tornado fans, special effects and other glitter & frills...that beat out the 'Dare to Compare' Alienware $4000 PC.
-----
$16,000 on a PC. This reminds me of an old Jack in the Box Commerical. Jack is attending a food vending conferance. There is all sorts of venders everywhere. In one area, is one guy sitting by himself with a hand written sign: Food Consultant, $15,000 . Jack talks to the guy and asks: How many contracts did you get so far? The guy replys: All I need is ONE. At the end of the commerical, some KFC chicken signs the guy up to taste nuggets.....at 15k a bite.
-----------------
So, are the mega extreme PC boom comming to an end? Not really...as long as thier as gamers willing to pay $500 and $1000 for A Video Card and $400 to $1000 for a cpu, there will always be some rich getting richer company waiting to take these suckers for a ride.
46. A Big Co. PC means
Feldwebel Wolfenstool - 03/10/09
...cheesy graphics cards, marginal power supplies, slimeware, and RAM that won't be usable in any upgrade.
Do they have a service depot near Coboconk, Ontario?
47. RE: Extreme PCs and
stdo57@... - 03/10/09
being that i have built every pc that I have owned for the last 10 years and have found that you can purchase and build a much more powerfull pc than you can buy for the money, with research.
Oh yea dont forget about the upgrades that you can purchase for a tenth of the cost that 6 years ago would break the bank.
And that software, other than games and multimedia,havn't mathed the software for years.
I still have a dual pentium pro that will run vista nicly but use a gamming board and a single core 3.4 socket 775 and 4 gigs, and all of this for 250 a year ago.
next is the core i7, just wait a few months to a year,due to the economy, and the i7 will be much cheaper in a upgrade package-mem,chip-board.
48. Jason has no clue
FirstNLastN - 03/10/09
Sorry Jason, but even though I do not build mmy own Apple Mac's that I switched to about 5 years ago, I built my PC systems for simple reason: they were more reliable (i.e. parts were better quality than Dell's for example0 and cheaper for the purpose I built it.
I have built home, non-linear video editing systems in 1999 and a year later i could read in "Videomaker" about company that built same system as I did from the same parts for %100 more money.
Also my PC's that gave away are still in use... after 10 years. Dell would probably crap out due to some motherboard issues.
I picked my parts carfully and not neccessarily fastes of all.
49. Extreme as a hobby vs. Extreme as a need
rarsa - 03/10/09 (Edited: 03/10/09 @ 11:30)
So, Joe PC does not have can't afford one thereafter no one needs one?
Sure, there'll be less Extreme PC hobbyists that can afford the best of the best as there'll be less Hot Rod hobbyists that can afford it.
That does not mean that the drive to do it will disappear. For now, hobbyists will have fun squeezing as much power from their existing components. When the money is back they will go back to buying the extreme hardware and... squeezing as much power as they can.
Besides, there'll still be the need for extreme systems for people on a budget that need real computing power. e.g. video rendering, simulations, data analysis, etc.
Extreme systems exist because of the shelf systems are not adequate for all situations. Do it yourself extreme systems are still better priced than the equivalent commercial systems (e.g. high density computer clusters and supercomputers).
50. RE: Homebrewed PCs
rmazzeo - 03/10/09
Homebrewing is definitely not dead (notice I spelled "definitely" correctly). I will build my own PCs untl I can't get quality parts anymore. What's more, I can use 1 OS until it is no longer supported, thereby reducing my cost per "new" PC. As long as vendors continue to put crapware on their pre-built boxes, & as long as they make it seem that it's spectacular to have them NOT put that crapware on it (& give it a stupid name to boot) count me out. The cost saving isn't the issue, it's the component quality & the satisfaction of doing it myself, although the cost saving is good, even if it isn't a lot. Yes indeedy, I'll be building my own systems for the foreseeable future, & having fun doing it!
51. IT's Over for me.
Richard B - 03/10/09
To me the issue is technology. As speeds get higher there other issues like board to CPU impedance not to mention driver incompatibility. I felt my problem was due to a mismatch. Next time I am just getting a dell. There still some areas I would home brew like setting up a test server but for mission critical issue like my EBay business I would not trust just building a system and have it not work when I need it
.
As for the extreme, there is no longer a driving force as in games. Xbox and PS3 sapped much of the market. To day go to a game store, there hardly any pc games.
51.1. Games
jperlow - 03/11/09
For me, the death of the PC as a gaming platform came when the focus became more on 3D shooters than sophisticated sims for Air and Naval combat, and really good real time strategy stuff. Microsoft killing its Flight Sim unit pretty much ends that entire era as far as I am concerned.
If I want to play 3D shooters, I can pick up a reconditioned XBOX 360 for $165 and play Halo to my heart's content on a HD screen. No need for a $700 and up PC.
51.1.1. Nothing but 3D shooters is killing PC Gaming
BillDem - 07/02/09
We're getting off topic a little, but I agree on that one. As a former PC game programmer myself, I saw that shift coming a long time ago and lost interest. I'm like you. I enjoyed RTS and classic RPG games far more than FPS. Unfortunately, FPS is the only thing still being developed for the PC it seems. Where are all the great classic RTSs like Age of Empires III and Command & Conquer 3? I haven't seen a new one worth buying in years. Where are all the classic RPGs like Neverwinter Nights or even the older, simpler Diablo II? I played through Fallout 3 and realized the obsession with FPS tainted even that game. I keep breaking out my old games over and over because there just isn't anything new worth buying.
And don't get me started about DRM!! It may be that DRM killed PC games more than anything else. I dread installing any new game because of the crap it weaves into my OS, causing crashes and flaky behavior. Before DRM, I would buy new games just to try them out and not worry about the expense. After DRM came along, I had to think carefully about and research each purchase to make sure it wasn't going to screw up my computer. If I hear about DRM problems, I just never buy it. Probably "Steam" is the only DRM I don't completely avoid these days.
52. RE: Extreme PCs and
Insight Driver - 03/10/09
Due to the economies of large scale manufacturing, building a box that is equivalent in specifications to the Dells and such will be about the same as I can achieve. The intangibles I get, though, from the satisfaction of building my own adds value to what I do for myself. I can start with an enthusiast motherboard that can be upgraded. I see many major manufacturer motherboards stripped of extra connectors and such to make their boards cheaper, and not upgradeable. My enthusiast board has a bios that allows overclocking. The Dell bios is locked down to make the PC stable and more idiot-proof. An OEM copy of Windows is about $100.
With the likes of Frys and New Egg, the sources of parts are convenient and give so many choices, one can spec and build exactly what they want, at any price point they want.
I do not see home built becoming less popular. With so many functions included on the motherboard, and plug and play at the bios level now, putting a PC together is easier than ever before.In fact, I think home-building will always appeal to a niche market and may even increase in popularity with the downturn of the economy.
Besides I can reuse old power supplies, cases, keyboards, mice and monitors. Many parts of old PC's are easy to get for free or at minimal cost.
53. RE: Extreme PCs and
psion@... - 03/10/09
Whether it be PCs, stereos, HAM radios, cars or even espresso machines (my weakness), guys will ALWAYS find ways to blow money. 
54. RE: Extreme PCs and
bobmatch@... - 03/10/09
You know it's not that we don't want to build, it just doesn't make scene to build. I mean with a quad core AMD with 3 gig of RAM, big drive and loads of bells and missiles for a few hundred bucks. Why bother? the machine can already out strip even the larges bandwidth out there (unless you're mainlining fiber)heck, a machine can even almost run Vista ultimate well.
55. Jason, how severely misguided you are...
nix_hed - 03/10/09
People don't always build their own systems to spend $500
on graphics cards, $1000 on a processor, and $350 on a
motherboard; the reason why many people build their own
computers is so that person can have absolute control over
what goes into the machine. Even a Dell build-your-own
doesn't give you that sort of power when clicking on what
goes into your system.
While basic computers are usually cheaper to buy than
build (a HP with Sempron LE-1150 is $270, while building
a comparable system with the same OS is $295), the mid-
range and high-end builds are where you start to see cost
savings over name-brand systems - at the $500 to $600
price point, you can usually build a better system with a
legit OS for less than what a comparable system from a
name brand would cost, and at the $1000+ price point,
you will usually build a faster, more stylish system than
what's available.
56. Yes, You're Wrong Jason Perlow
WiredGuy - 03/10/09
While it is true that print based enthusiast publications will likely all call it quits (as will ZD-Net, someday), the PC hobby will continue on.
Will the stuff they sell at Costco do the job for most consumers? Of course. Will there be someone who is looking for something less "run of the mill", maybe a little something off the beaten path? Always.
It is likely that most of us will never even sit in a Ferrari automobile. They are beautiful, they are rare, they are expensive, they are extreme. But, Ferrari sells every car they make and they never have to spend a dime on advertising.
57. Dead? No, just dormant
cjc82s - 03/10/09
People like myself, who aren't afraid to get dirty inside a system, will always be here. Our budgets may not be for some time, but the inspiration for any type of extreme system work will remain, and grow. Eventually, we will rise again to produce the most ludicrous and powerful systems known to man. Or at least nice off into single areas of modding. Just wait for the efficient parts to come, and see the resurgence of future-proofing
58. RE: Extreme PCs and
wcosales@... - 03/10/09
When you buy a white box barebones system from someone you need to know the quality as with an individual. I have caught several big name internet Computer warehouse type companies selling people obsolete equipment and then dont stand behind the warranty. I am a system builder and only use quality products and give a full three warranty on the harware i build. I do handle the warranty work so the home build does not have to do that. Especially if they work. My opinion the economy is going to keep going down hill as long as we have the spend thrift Democrats in office. Where does President Obama think the money is going to come from TREES???? If he taxes the rich people they are the ones who own companies and will pass it on the us little people and if he taxes us too much we will just stop working and then who is going to pay. Thank you for letting me rant and rave. People want
American made products and even some of the barebone systems are assy. in Mexico or China. Go to your local computer shop and the profit stays local and helps support the local economy and not some big outfit in a foreign country.
59. RE: Extreme PCs and
dennyc5@... - 03/10/09
I don't know... I just built two high end, water cooled, CrossfireX, insanely overclocked systems
for two customers that are hard core gamers in
guess what, the highest unemployment rate, most
economically miserable area in the US. I've also built and sold 11 middle of the road, not too expensive, won't be outdated in two years systems last month too. I'm starting to convert lot's of people in this area from the national brand computers to locally built systems and some of those have upgraded a tweeked the computers that I built for them themselves. I don't care how you cut it, if you know what you are doing and you want to build your own PC, unless something drastically changes, you are always better off doing it yourself.
60. RE: Extreme
net2j@... - 03/10/09
Reading your 'new attitude' is refreshing, I hope they keep you. Your career development may require changes, good hunting. J.
61. Blatant Trollish Article From An Obvious Wannabe
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/10/09
LOL, that's clever, that is. While of course writers often need to play up a bit of sensationalism to keep readers interested and "hot topics" are always good meat, there is something to be said for blatant attempts to inflame readers in order to create artificial "news" and "hysteria". Putting yourself in the lime light not because you actually said something important or noteworthy, but simply because you said something incredibly stupid and obviously aggravating to many people.
Home built PCs may be dead for you my friend, and that's all well and good, but quite frankly, those of us who still build our own systems (for whatever reason)...well you'll have to forgive us if we just can't seem to sum up enough bother to give a rats ass about your woeful little tale of how the economic sky is falling and will end all existence as we know it.
There are DOZENS of different reasons to build your own computer from scratch, the most important of which is the quality of components. I always get a big kick out of people who claim that Windows is so horrible and it's always crashing and locking up, etc, etc. What these idiots don't realize is that it's not the operating system, but rather the **** grade, factory seconds, refurbished GARBAGE they bought off eBay or down at freakin K-Mart that's causing all their problems.
My system, running Windows XP quite literally *NEVER* crashes, despite the fact that I'm often running more than a half dozen browser instances along with dozens more pages tabbed out in each, along with 3D rendering software, numerous graphics applications, etc, etc. My system never crashes because *I* built it and *I* built it with the highest quality components available at the time...an MSI E7505 motherboard with dual 2.4Ghz Intel Xeon processors, 4 gigs of Infineon ECC registered memory, a Radeon AIW Pro 9600 video card, five 500 gig Maxtor HDs, three of which are in removable mobile rack setups (used primarily for media storage).
The point here though is that I didn't build this system because I wanted to show off or build an "extreme" computer, I built it specifically because I *NEEDED* it...in fact I need a whole lot more, but this is what I can afford at present. Now I understand that for the kiddie crowd you don't really do much with your computers outside of sending e-mail and playing games, however for those of us who are artists, developers, professionals, well we do fun things like 3D rendering work, high resolution video editing and encoding and other such things, which *REQUIRE* an "extreme" computer in order to do them.
Now, given the economic woes of some people losing their jobs, often because they're next to worthless, sure, there's gonna be a few...lessers, out there who won't be able to afford to build their own computer, but don't ever mistake your own easily replaceable position with that of the norm. There are *LOTS* of people who have no worry at all about losing their jobs...but then these are people who actually have skill, ability and manage to produce more than just cookie cutter crapware. There's no shortage of work available...for those that *CAN* work, those that can do the job and do it well without any posturing or ******** artistry.
The tech industry has always had a horrible infestation of wannabes, poser class dipshits and the like, passing off cookie cutter, cog stamped crap off as their own work and then wondering why they can't "get rich quick" and wind up fired when the economy takes a down turn. Personally, I think this current downturn is actually *GOOD* for the economy, it shakes people up, makes them realize that they had better stay the hell on the ball and that they better know what the hell they're doing, because man 'o man, that 'ol tech bubble can burst again at any 'ol time and those that are gonna be left high and dry are those that are the posers and wannabes...and good riddance. The original tech bubble burst was probably the best thing that could have happened to this industry and quickly cleared out the whole lot of fake artists in one giant sweep.
Now get the hell out of the computer store and don't let the door hit ya on the ass on yer way out, wannabe. And take all your other idiot wannabe friends with you. We don't need you and we don't want you here. You don't matter to this industry...ever.
62. byo pc lives!
jefflackey@... - 03/10/09
Sounds to me like the author is just running out of things to write about. Any "extreme" pc will be mild withing 3 years. Technology marches on.
If you can be happy with buying a brand name pc with generic ram, economy grade mother board and anemic power supply then so be it. I like to know what's in mine and have some say so as to the reliability of the parts. Don't even get me started on proprietary cases that defy upgrades.
I've bought a few Hp's and Dells and I'm tired of having to rip out the power supply, upgrade the video card, add drives, upgrade ram etc.
Not much savings there.
Jeff in Atl
63. RE: Extreme PCs and
iamdarwinsrottweiller620@... - 03/11/09
anyone heard of ******** computers ? http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/
63.1. That's A Clever Gimick
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
I mean, it doesn't actually ~do~ anything, but it does look ~very~ pretty and sounds ~very~ cool on the techno-babble front. You'll certainly be able to impress your friends with it! LOL
64. RE: Extreme PCs and
ceh4702 - 03/11/09
Who cares about a PC that costs $16,000.00?
To me it would serve no real purpose other than being broke. I cant afford most games they sell so this is just pie in the sky lunacy.
64.1. For You, Yes, But Not For A Developer
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/11/09
There are *LOTS* of reasons to buy a $16,000 computer...and actually that's *REALLY* cheap compared to say an SGI Altix 3000 super cluster. Granted these systems are not for your average computer illiterate who just wants to play games and send e-mail, they're built mostly for businesses and for developers/artists/researchers who need a high end system for their work. Needless to say, unless you're rich you *DON'T* go out and blow $16,000 on a computer just to play some kiddy games and send e-mail.
65. The only thing "retarded" is this blog post
Speednet - 03/11/09
...And you forgot about Computer Shopper, which is alive and well.
Just what we need: a tech site that does not talk about extreme technology. Talk about "retarded".
65.1. Computer Shopper
jperlow - 03/11/09
Folded Print last month.
http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-computer-shopper-is-going-all-digital-april-is-last-print-issue/
65.1.1. Not sure how I missed that
Speednet - 03/11/09
I didn't know about Computer Shopper going digital, I will certainly concede that point. I do, however, take "extreme" exception to this blog as a whole, for the numerous reasons in my various comments.
Also, I'm not sure it's appropriate to say the publications are "folding". I subscribe to PC Magazine online edition, and it's very much like reading the paper version. "Folding" implies that it is no longer available in any form - like the Rocky Mountain News did (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/pages/special-reports/rocky-sale/).
66. RE: Extreme PCs and
elliottxp - 03/11/09
GEEZ I am getting mad, I just read through all these comments and I will admit I have only built a handful of extreme PC's but I have built in 2008 36 upgrade or completely new systems that were by and large faster better than what my customers walked in to my home with and I built it for less than getting in a retail store or local pc repair shop. I charge a modest rate plus a tiny percentage over cost of parts and yes NEWEGG was my source. I can build a good pc for less than $275 and that is with a licensed copy of Vista Premium or XP. I can build a great gamer for only a $125 more what are you thinking and I build when requested energy efficient pc's that can run rings around the latest retail $249-299 job. BTW ZDnet & Newegg Rocks and I am 45yrs old and I can kick and I can jump and I can build a pc in one day.
66.1. 10-4, Elliott
Vibrant_Rich - 03/11/09
Thanks for your optimism pal . . . Jason must just be rattling us old-guy's cages about talents gleened over years of experience. "Extreme PC's" may be all in the amount invested in the build, rather than in the great fun of "doing it ourselves". I usually buy the MB one year & wait another year for the 'better upgrade parts' to fall in prices. Personally, I keep my stuff on a work- bench, rather than keep in a case. I'm 62.
67. RE: Extreme PCs and
bweir13 - 03/12/09
What really makes me laugh.....Is that some people here are convinced they can get a better deal from Dell, or any other PC maker. Sure you got that killer $350 desktop running Vista with 2Gb of Ram, but that systems hardware was old news in 2008. Try upgrading it, and see what I mean. For an extra $100 I could build a system with a new motherboard that will guarantee upgradability for at least 5 years and will eat the Dell for breakfast. To the guy who is convinced that the quality is the same for Dell components Vs. parts bought at retail, you are completely mistaken. Dell has enough clout where they are able to have parts produced to THEIR specs, while keeping the part as cheap as possible. IE: cheap capacitors Vs solid state, lower quality memory chips, thinner motherboards (7-layer Vs. 10+ layers), absolutely JUNK power supplies, and flimsy optical drives. Hey, you saved $46, but will certainly need that $200, 3-year Dell Super-Platinum protection plan, because you are guaranteed to run into a component failure, off-warranty.
68. Mod or custom will always be here...
xXSpeedzXx - 03/12/09
Simply put I can build a new PC from the gound up, and it's performance will kick anything I can get from the big OEM's for less than they sell them. The $5000 system that OEM's show off, I can usually build for about 1/5th the price.
Lets look shall we.
32 bit system
New Quadcore Processor $150 - $200
Mother Board $150 - $200
RAM 4GB $80 - $100
VGA X1 Card $100 - $120
Sata HD 250-320GB $50 - $100
DVD Drive SATA $50 - $100
Case $80 - $200
************************************
Total ############### $660 - $1020
Ok so alot of these prices are based on the previous modeled hard, but in terms of actual performance, I do not buy the very latest processor for $600+ when I know next month that processor will sell for $200 or less. My point is that I can build a custom machine that has alot more gas and capability that comparable OEM Manufactured "Extreme Machines" I personally think that anyone that has to have the processor that comes out tomorrow and spends a 1,000 dollars on it just for it to be worth $150 next month is a bloomin idiot, I should know I bought one once, and kicked my self a month later when the same processor was selling for under $200.
So customized Extreme machines will not disappear, in fact I think they may even become more popular given like I said a custom built machine is cheaper.
**Disclaimer**
Note OS pricing is not included, as I do not include that in the cost of actually building a machine, especially since retail versions can be bounced from one machine to the next as parts are either upgraded, or a new machine is built and the old one sold off with out the OS. For around $200 to $500 you can add liquid cooling.
68.1. Ok I forgot
xXSpeedzXx - 03/12/09
TO add a PSU to that list add another 150 to 200 dollars to that total.
68.2. This Is Completely Wrong
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
Your prices are in the range of QUALITY components, if you want to try and compare it to what's in, say, a Dell, you're going to have to lower your numbers significantly.
Here, let me do this:
Case - $23
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811164114
PS - $23
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159045
320 GB HD - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
2 Ghz Celeron Processor - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116069
Motherboard - $40
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136033
2 GB memory - $18
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148240
DVD Burner - $17
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106085
Keyboard - $5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823164003
Mouse - $5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826129049
So we got a total of - $248
A comparable Dell - $279
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=ddcbda1
Now let's look at monitors.
17" Flat Screen Monitor - $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254032
The Dell - 17" flat screen monitor - $160
Total prices:
Mine - $348
The Dell - $439
LOL, yeah, *WAY* cheaper, nearly a $100 cheaper for basically the *SAME* system! ^__^
68.2.1. Not to nitpick....
bweir13 - 03/12/09
You forgot the windows Tax of at least $89 (Vista Home Basic)
68.2.1.1. At NewEgg
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
I don't normally include the OS price since people usually already have XP and then they can buy a Vista upgrade, or if they're a student they can buy through the college at *WAY* cheaper. Assuming you ~want~ the Vista upgrade, if you were buying the system from me I'd get it for you for about $50.
68.2.1.1.1. Also...
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
I charge a flat rate of $25 to put together a system (usually takes me about an hour or so). I also of course offer many things that Dell can't, like the ability *NOT* to upgrade to Vista, to have a custom case, to have a system built with quality components, to have a system that's fully upgradable, etc, etc.
The bottom line here is that, depending on the outfit, even if you're not building the system yourself, you can still get a better deal going with a non box brand outfit. You do have to be careful of course, it's better to buy from someone locally, and you should always ask for references so you can talk to other people who have bought computers from them before.
There's lots of variety as well, for example if I sell you a system with quality components, then I don't charge to come out and fix the thing, including the cost of parts, for the first year. And for the first three years I don't charge for basic trouble shooting/repair (usually I do this over the phone). I'll also do upgrades for $15 plus the price of the components.
So anyway, if you buy locally you can usually get a better deal and it's a lot nicer having someone just right down the street who can come and fix your computer, rather than trying to go through tech support via some foreign country where they hardly speak any English.
69. RE: Extreme PCs and
vachi - 03/12/09
lol Onideus_Mad_Hatter you were responding to Jason lol, do yo
not read haha,
but about emachines you said an interesting thing
PSUs are one of the components that do matter I think Jason will
agree with me on this that there is a difference between PSUs and
this difference can be easily tested, this is not to say that OEM
use bad PSUs, they use the ones that will satisfy their build hence
not leaving space for future upgrade, this does not mean you
need crazy and i say crazy PSUs that go to "retarded" limits, the
Net Book and such computing is the future and prices of many
components have been going down drastically in our opinion
better operating systems are the path to more productivity and
very powerful machines can be built at a maximum of 2000
dollars ( this is all custom parts that is)
going to extremes with many CPUs on one board and such is
retarded and debil, at a much lower cost one can spread tasks
through many computers, clustering computers gives your the
same computational power at 3rd the cost
the hardware gurus should spend their time exploring a new
twisted market the market of cheaper and cheaper computers
the same JohnnyGurus and others can stay active by changing
their subject to cheaper and better computers not 15000 but 150
building a reliable machine at these prices is the future
69.1. I Can't Read Your Post
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
Is English not your primary language? Honestly, that horrible rape of the English language was so was completely atrocious I barely made it through the fumbling text and came out of it without any idea as to what you were even talking about. *shrugs* And no, I don't usually pay any attention to the name of the person I'm replying to, unless you are of particular interest to me I won't even bother acknowledging you as a sentient presence. To put it bluntly, I don't usually make my posts for the person that I'm replying to...in fact usually the person I'm replying to is so completely stupid they probably can't even comprehend what I'm trying to explain in the first place. I said in another post...I can't fix stupid. My posts are not designed in any way to try and "convince" an idiot that they're wrong. The idiot isn't just going to wake up and realize, "Holy cripe, I'm an idiot! You're completely right!"
70. Someone should have told me this...
spleendamage - 03/12/09
Before I went and bought parts for my latest i7
system in February.
Relating the death of print media concerning PC
building and the death of PC building itself is a
pretty big leap. I'm going to go out on a limb and
assume that most people who are throwing together a
custom rig aren't getting their software drivers from
the in-mag CD these days. Nope, they pretty much all
are using the internet for their community message
boards, hardware recommendations, reviews and such
from a variety of sources available instantly rather
than a single source of print arriving each month.
In case you hadn't noticed the New York Times is also
on the verge of having to sell assets due to plunging
ad revenues. Does this mean that no one is interested
in the news anymore?
Correlation does not really make a good argument.
See: Flying spaghetti monster.
Yes, the economy is tough. Yes, some people do not
have jobs or as much disposable income. But does it
really have this direct death-blow effect on the
extreme PC crowd? Do you think the people interested
in home building computers and extreme systems were
on the verge of being the homeless to begin with?
PC building is just as dead as PC gaming.
And despite what industry insiders like yourself cry
in crowded theatres, the real answer is: Not at all.
71. RE: Extreme PCs and
Bulldog64 - 03/12/09
After wasting my time reading your post I can say either you are retarded because of a severe head injury, or just don't know squat about what you are talking about. I was cuttiing code when you were in diapers and have seen and worked on more than my share of systems since 1968 and what you said can be summed up as far as it's relevance as pure BS. I build systems a lot and if you want it done right and cheaper do it your self - providing you know what you are doing and anybody can find that out by either buying a book on the subject or going to the library!
72. Home built PC's have nothing to do with $$$$.
bjbrock - 03/12/09
They are built by someone that just loves to build PC's. Then using something he/she created themselves. Just because they can by something off the shelf for less has nothing to do with it.
I will always build my own PC's and so will most everyone else that is building them now.
Even in my company we build our own. 91 last year and probably that many or more this year. My components are as good or better than what are in the "cheap" pc's on the rack.
Roll your own - FOREVER!
72.1. Got that right!!
bweir13 - 03/12/09
I love having the flexibility to build my own PC, and it really doesn't have anything to do with money. I could build a system for $300 or for $3000, and I'd still be laughing at my friends who constantly as me to fix their Dell because it's acting "funny" and runs slow. No sh*t, that's what Dell's do!
72.2. WRONG!
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
They have EVERYTHING to do with money, look at that last post I made, I priced out a home built jobby and a Dell, mine, nearly a HUNDRED DOLLARS cheaper!
But hey, I'll give the other side another chance. If anyone on the opposing team wants to pick another box brand system...any specs you want...I'll price out a comparable system and I guarantee it'll be at least $50 cheaper.
72.2.1. why do you love saying WRONG
vachi - 03/12/09
the story was not about building cheaper custom machines it was about
the hobbies and the market that they had created that catered to a small
niche,
everyone knows that you can build custom machines with very competitive prices from parts found in newegg and other websites
72.2.1.1. Because I Love The Way It Makes You Reply
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09
Your posts makes no sense I'm afraid. You're saying that the article has nothing to do with cost when the original poster specifically pointed out financial problems as being the core problem with what's "killing" the market and specifically stated that it's cheaper to buy a box brand system than to build one yourself.
...did you just not read the article or something?
*shrugs*
Sorry, but I can't fix stupid, I just can't.
72.2.2. What's $100?
bjbrock - 03/12/09
Doubt you looked in the right places. But hey, if you are not the kind to take pride in a self built system that is OK too.
There's nothing like firing off a self built system and then watch it scream past your buddy's brand new Dell.
72.2.2.1. That Was Just Quick Flunkie Run
Onideus_Mad_Hatter - 03/12/09 (Edited: 03/12/09 @ 02:17)
Obviously if it was me building the thing I would have used www.pricewatch.com and wouldn't have gone for such cheapy Dell like components. Using NewEgg though gives what the average non-computer expert would be looking at as far as a general price comparison.
Also, I'm quite certain that some people don't much mind the whole "paying for convenience" aspect and often people will shift between the two mentalities throughout their life, depending on a variety of factors.
For those who are actual computer enthusiasts though who ENJOY building computers, there really isn't any incentive at all to buy a box brand system.
Even if for some odd reason you don't enjoy building computers the fact is it's still cheaper and you leave yourself with a *LOT* more options. You buy that Dell I mentioned...you *HAVE* to get Vista...you don't get a choice there.
73. Slow, but not go away.
Narg - 03/12/09
Homebrew's will never go away. Those of us that thrive on such machines might slow down their upgrades a bit, but when the enconomy turns around, the heat will pick up again. Maybe it's time for a beather anyway...
74. You neglected "quality" as a reason to home build.
tom.zdnet@... - 03/13/09
I build my own PC's because I like to pick quality components - especially the motherboards. I don't always build gaming rigs, but I don't want to buy low end crap thinking it'll save me money, when in the end it isn't reliable and gives me more in headaches than I saved in dollars.
74.1. Absolutely!
Pepper.dot.Net - 08/14/09 (Edited: 08/14/09 @ 03:46)
Reason number one that I will never buy a Dell or HP system again: they both might use a good quality motherboard, as good as you could get anywhere, but in order to save a few pennies they'll get it from the OEM with some of the standard parts missing.
Only two of four RAM slots having the actual socket, for example, meaning the buyer is out of luck if he wants to add more RAM. I have seen this several times and it is inexcusable to sell something to the consumer that should be upgradable but the upgrade path is deliberately blocked. Just to punish the buyer for not buying all the RAM slots fully populated with the company's overpriced RAM, I expect.
I will always buy the parts I want and build the system I want from now on, even if I can get a "brand-name" cheaper.
75. Quality as a reason to home-build...
matthew_of_cambridge - 03/14/09
Too right - it's been a long time since I trusted a computer retailer not to:
* Sell me an ex-display computer and pretend it's brand-new
* Engineer the computer for headline figures (like CPU GHz) and acronym-laden feature-lists instead of actual performance, reliability, power consumption & noise reduction. (I can't look at my parents "flat screen TFT monitor" for more than five minutes, it's awful.)
* Say the computer is "totally upgradable" but use hot-melt glue to permanently fasten internal components together in order to reduce support costs.
Most retail salespeople have no clue about memory CAS latency and other important things that often make a bigger difference to system performance than an expensive 25% upgrade in CPU clock frequency. It also bewilders me how ignorant they are about power-grid fault-tolerance, PSU output voltage stability, and the impact that has on reliability etc.
While it's been a while since I could beat Dell mail-order on price, it's starting to happen again... A few months ago I built a "home-brew" system for ?200 GBP ($300 USD) that's more powerful less power-hungry and more reliable than a reasonably well-engineered $400 Dell computer.
76. RE: Extreme PCs and
n3o_311 - 03/14/09 (Edited: 03/14/09 @ 10:04)
It's too bad you had to compare this to pr0n, of all things. Sheesh. Anyways, there is a strong homebrew community @ rampantspeculation.com. You seem to be "assuming" a lot in this article...
77. RE: Extreme PCs and
atari8bit@... - 03/14/09
Sorry, I will NEVER stop bulding my own machines. This
started on a 286 and has kept going for I don't know
how many years and it will continue with me.
Yes, I can get a Ibuypower Core I 7 with a 9800GT+ and
a crap chipset and a under rated power supply for
$800. Then I have to upgrade it for SLI if it has it
and so on and so forth. Doesn't make sense.
78. Homebrews have better upgrade path
fletchoid - 03/15/09
Sure, I can buy a Dell or a Costco cheap box that lets me surf, chat, etc. But in 3 years, the piece of crap power supply will crap out and fry the mobo. Now I am screwed because the box is a proprietary oddball format, and cannot be fixed with a new mobo and power supply, because nothing in the world fits the box. A friend of mine recently had his Dell box crap out on him before he even finished paying for it. To fix it would have cost a fortune with Dell parts, but for less money, I scavenged parts from the Dell and made him a better computer. If he had a homebrew from the start, it would have been even cheaper. So, Cheap at the start, costs more in the long run. Build your own and you can upgrade cheaply forever. Buy cheap; Buy often.
79. RE: Extreme PCs and
jerry@... - 03/17/09
I did the "custom" built thing on Dell's site and when I started adding I soon found the price was going fast. When it hit $1,300 I decided I could build it cheaper. My last computer lasted 5 years and a new case and a "scrubbbing" of parts, it know is a WHS, replacing a recycled an IBM small form factor with hard drives crammed in and velcroed down.
I ended up spending more like $1,400 building my own but with 3 TB of storage, top notch products and 8 MB of RAM it should last at least 5 years (with upgrades). Most likely it will outlast me. The point is like others have brought up...The satisfaction of doing it yourself and doing it right.
Being retired I watch where my money goes but the computer is part of my entertainment center and will end up costing no more than a couple of beers a day. Since I no longer drink alcholic beverages, what the heck, it's my money and I'll spend it like I want. BTW Windows 7 rocks all over Vista.
80. RE: Extreme PCs and
jscstew@... - 03/20/09
There's still a little room to play.
background: home pc builder (non-geek, read about, did it) of 3 sys, working on 4th.
You're correct that a top end sys from Costco might be the next platform I buy to start with. From other's experiences though, I've learned that most warantees that don't come from a local shop are of minimal value (and they won't help w/ Vista). There is something intangable about the laying on of hands; weither it be a patient you are intimatly involved with to help or an electronic box that you are bringing to life to do the both mundane and exciting things you participate in on the Net. $5,000 to $16,000 systems: no way, but $1,500-2,000 that compete w/ the best out there and do everything I demand of it better than well, yes. I refuse to read my e-mail on a 3" phone screen when I can so it on a 22" at hame or a 19' at work. So I even more like to paruse information and pics w/ a sys that I built and has supurb graphics and speed. I don't game a lot on line (and if I did it would be w/ an X-box or P-station), but I love the change my new sys gives to my visual enjoyment of it. I paid and still pay extra for cable(now FIOS), for obvious speed reasons, and my family enjoy it too. When I don't have a job, I'll go back to dial-up, till then, participating in the technology that we use evry day at home & work is fun and will be partaken of to some extreem. My family inherits my hobby, and their sys work well still.
81. Extreme overclocks
se_lain@... - 03/24/09
You can usually get more performance and reliability at a lower price from a well put together DIY system than a PC from a big OEM, especially with a mild overclock. As long as there are enough people who want to pay for hardware to play the latest demanding PC game (Crysis), and competition among hardware companies to give it to them there will be better and faster parts. While I do agree that tough economic times will mean lower sales of such extravagant systems like the 16,000 PC, which I think I and many others can do better after reading the review at Toms hardware, the websites you mentioned are doing more to inform users about their bang for their buck rather than just focus simply on performance.
Many feel that Toms in particular is getting out of touch by it's readers more and more since it has been bought out by Best of Media, but the community on the forum, as well as those on other forums, is particularly supportive of helping others get the best bang for the buck. Hexus.net is a new favorite of mine and makes sure to inform you of just how much performance per dollar you are getting on whatever part they happen to be reviewing, both at stock and overclocked speeds, as well as the power draw if you're concerned about your electric bill. There is definitely a trend among the hardware reviewer sites to point out value, but of course they still review the latest and greatest if you can afford the excess .
For gaming there is no better value than doing it yourself. When overclocking your system there is even greater value over just getting one from a big name brand, like HP or Dell, that often allows no overclocking at all. I've always built my own PC and the only brand name PCs I have were given to me because they didn't work or were too old, and I promptly fixed or upgraded them for various uses. While I can't exactly build my own laptop most of the ones I've had are fix er upers from Ebay that I can add the amount of RAM and HD space that I desire. While I may buy a laptop every now and then I will build my own PC as long as I can.
82. Load of rot
preyingrazor - 04/02/09
There will always be enthusaists around. The pace of upgrading and nature of the upgrades might have changed, but the passion is still there. I know of people who spend entire paychecks on upgrades. Albeit unmarried and living with their parents.
The market for the extreme PC's you talk about may be dead (was it even alive?). But homebrewsters will build the machine they think is the ultimate one for them. Till of course, the next upgrade / rebuild cycle.
83. Judging only by...
notlehs - 04/16/09
The amount of replies to this story.. It is safe to say that Homebrew and Extreme PC interest is alive and well. Please stop whining about the economy, and show us some cool new PC parts, some speedy innovative new gadgetry...specs for the building of a homebrew PC...
We love to read about it, even when we can't afford it. I would say that PC Magazine and others forgot about the core audience and drown themselves with fluff pieces which showed no difference in reading their magazine or reading Newsweek. If I want to read about the godawful economy, how about how my friends are out of work...all I need to do is open outlook and read my email.
However, sometimes we all like to leave that behind and read about technology and that is what we are looking for(and not always getting) when we read your articles.
84. RE: Extreme PCs and
rmlounsbury@... - 04/16/09
I don't think the art of home-brew will ever
die. I've been building my own machines for
years now and will probably continue to do so.
My current desktop a Core 2 Duo 2.66GHz without
question has been my most stable custom machine
yet. I know exactly how it is configured and
put together. That is how I like it!
I never really understood the uber computer
platforms. Sure they answer the age old of
question of... "Yes I can play Crysis and at
max frame rates." Big deal! I think the most
advanced game I run on my machine any more is
Civ 4. To that end I routinely find myself in
DOS Box playing Master of Magic and X-Com. The
graphics aren't great but they are loads more
fun to play than the crap being produced today.
The only way Is top building my own custom
desktop is if I switch to a notebook full time.
85. To be honest?
kcredden2 - 04/16/09 (Edited: 04/16/09 @ 07:45)
I build my own systems, mainly because Dell, and others can't build a system worth the cost. My office - over my advice (and I'm the sysadmin) - bought a Dell about 2 years ago. I'm still shaking my head.
It was a Dell Dimension B110, and it was built on the cheap. No CPU fan, only 2 fans, and the rear one was used as the CPU fan No power switch on the power supply, and no reset button 1 DVD rom drive, 250g harddrive, built in video, and audio
Know how to reboot it, when Windows throws a fit? Either pull the plug (or turn it off at the power switch) or hold onto the button for 4 seconds while it shuts dowm completely.
Now my system I made. It's a 3ghz, dual core. 4gb memory, .5TB on 2 harddrives, DVI/E, PCI/E, nVida 7300 Geforce video card, Soundblaster 16 card, DVD+-RW dual layer burner. It has a 600w power supply, AND a reset, and power on/off button. My cost? $700 - $200 more than the Dell
#1 I built mine to last about 3 - 5 years, since I don't have the money to throw away for a new system every couple of years.
#2 I built it also to get away from the MS tax. I don't need, or use Windows, so why do I need to give MS $50 or so for their useless OS?
Now to be fair, I will agree with you on extreme building. That's really a ******** thing, and that is like linux. If you have the time, and desire, you can build it from source. Me? I am a business user. I build my systems to work, last, and save money. So Extreme building is not something I do, or want, and probably is on it's way out. Notice how long customizing cars lasted in the 50s? Now it's only pros that do such. The garage customizer is nearly gone.
I'm going to try to build my first laptop soon, so please. Homebrewing is over? Write back in about 25 more years.
- Kc
86. I agree
rcfoulk@... - 04/16/09
I've built many PCs and did so because the cost relative to performance versus vendor purchase was notable. This is very much not so dramatic now days. In addition I'm one of those old guys who view the PC as a tool as opposed to a device for entertainment. If I want entertainment I'll watch movies on a television or better yet go outside and move my body.
Even if I have a statistical analysis to perform on a reasonably large dataset, something that benefits from high I/O speed as well as computational speed, your basic Dell Optiplex 755 gets the job done handily with virtually no waiting. Even local database projects perform nicely on such hardware and if it's transactions from a server that is not SQL of some strip the network bandwidth limits are the bottleneck, not the PC. As for everything else it?s really a matter of a couple seconds increase in start time. At > 100 words per minute I've never taxed the ability of even an old DOS 8086. And more intense graphics programs such as Photoshop or GIMP zoom along quite nicely on such hardware where the speed of the graphics card would likely be a greater issue than the CPU or bus speed.
So yes, unless you're actively searching for the next prime number on your own machine, extreme machines are more about bragging rights much like the hood scoop of my 57 Chevy that covered the intake to my dual-four setup in high school (it didn't really require a hood scoop).
87. RE: Extreme PCs and
kvolkan - 04/16/09 (Edited: 04/16/09 @ 08:44)
Very provocative column...but I have to reluctantly agree. I was a hard core builder for a while, but now it doesn't make much sense, either financially or performance-wise to build my own machine. My last PC purchases I did exactly what Jason does - bought a cheap PC and added stuff to it. The performance was already very good, so a few bells and whistles was all I needed. Also with Vista, even a supposedly fast system seemed slow, so why bother to eek out a little bit more performance when the whole system seemed stuck in the mud. Maybe this will change with Win 7?
88. I disagree
Lerianis - 04/16/09
For people who are hard-core gamers, spending 5K on a system is a drop in the bucket, as long as they are getting a reasonable 'bang' for their buck.
Alienware systems? You get that. Falcon NW system? Little worse than Alienware, but you still get it.
Puget Systems? I looked at their 16K system, and I have to say.... not worth the money spent on it.
But lesser 'extreme' brands where they don't go stupidly extreme and break the bank just for 1 fps of speed..... yeah, they are still worth it.
89. RE: Extreme PCs and
gary859 - 04/16/09
Jason, you say porn is healthy huh! Im glad my children live no where near you.
90. RE: Extreme PCs and
lcs0901 - 04/16/09
Sorry for butting in, but have you considered medically-based and other research software? Can you even imagine the amount of processes/second it takes to manage uber-huge databases, for example the medical records department of the Veterans Administration healthcare network across the country? How about the graphics needs of the family doc who looks at several CT images or MRI images of a patient who's in his office, while that patient is in an exam room down the hall? Or even the scientist who takes her work home and crunches the numbers of the study on which she's working? These folks' needs also drive the need for advancing technology!! Don't assume that what's current in the news is the only thing happening in the rest of the (tech) world!!
91. RE: Extreme PCs and
alfowler@... - 04/16/09
I have built the last 5 systems for myself and the family. Why because I get the performance each is designed to deliver. The fastest deal with video and photo editing, the rest the internet, posting or uploading family photos, finding out what my savings are up to, especially now.
Several of these systems now dual boot Linux, Mandriva Power pack and Ubuntu which are faster to boot and have access to a plethora of Open Source programs that do what is needed.
Any upgrade entails only what is necessary e.g a faster dual core. The other point is that if a component fails, then it is only a matter of replacing it or returning to the seller under guarantee.
93. Dead.
HypnoToad72 - 07/02/09
Why spend so much money for rabidly powered hardware (and the electricity costs that go with it) for the latest OS, which is bound to just crawl on it anyway?
Fine tune the OS to the hardware and save money in the long run.
In a word: Macintosh. Sorry, but it's true.
93.1. Mac - cheaper?
Hate Malware - 07/02/09
I don't think so. In fact i know its not so. The mere mention of Mac conjures up images of some twat with superiority complex and deep pockets. Rabidly powered hardware? compared to Mac maybe. Intel and Amd based products are more cost effective, its up to the end user as to how much power they need and consume.
94. It's not a big question. And it's an easy answer.
Cayble - 07/02/09 (Edited: 07/02/09 @ 01:28)
Sure, there may be some cooling off in the home built market, but even that can be due in a large part to the economy generally.
Secondly, if this article is dealing directly and only with the top end extreme PC's, lets be honest, there never was a huge market for true extreme PC's. The reason the magazines existed is because even people who couldn't afford the VERY best knew they wanted to build something great and knowing what the best is, is part of that and those magazines provided for that. Now there is so much free knowledge available at ones finger tips through the internet its difficult to imagine paper magazines offering enough new information to make them worthwhile to an "average" builder.
And for those few who pointed out that you cannot always home build, or have a custom computer built cheaper then what a discount store can sell them for; true, but that needs further explanation.
By saying not always, that means "not always easy or practical". For one thing, the local guy with the wee shop on the corner cannot usually compete with the price point some large discount chains can get, its just that simple. If the small time local guy is all that you have where you live then thats rough, he may not have the parts you want or need and may not be able to offer them at a decent savings.
But the fact is, any larger city has multiple computer shops and many of those have a large enough distribution chain the parts are quite cheap, the large good ones are always cheaper then even the big-time discount stores, not to mention that much of the discount computer shops have moved to online sales, and they are definitely cheap.
The custom built computer business is still thriving generally and its still quite some distance from dead.
95. RE: Extreme PCs and Homebrews
Cardhu - 07/02/09 (Edited: 07/07/09 @ 11:32)
For Windows desktop gaming systems, I build our own. As someone else recently commented, homebuilt systems have more value with higher reliability and better performance compared to OEM systems.
For laptops, we buy Macs.
As far as extreme computers, there will always be people who want something highly customized at ridiculously steep premiums. Anyone who doubts this should watch some HGTV shows to see the utter absurdities on public display.
http://www.hgtv.com/worlds-most-extreme-homes/show/index.html
For such people, a few tens of thousands of dollars for a customized computer are mere pocket change.
96. Extreme PCs and Home Brew - Alive in my house
BillDem - 07/02/09
My current gaming PC is a liquid-cooled, overclocked i7 965EE with dual GTX 285's in SLI. The PCs I've had the least trouble with have always been the ones I built myself. Now, if only there were some decent non-FPS games to run on my system...
96.1. Got to agree with that statement
Lerianis10 - 07/02/09
Most of the 'extreme' systems are for FPS games,
which are fine, but which I personally don't like
as much as RPG games.
If the RPG game companies would start realizing
that those customers are JUST AS GRAPHICS PUMPED
as other players are, things would get better.
97. RE: Extreme PCs and
Hate Malware - 07/02/09
Home brews alive and kicking in my home. I'm currently assembling a home theatre pc to place in my lounge room.I couldn't find one i liked or could afford retail, so making one to match my requirements is the only way to go. This way i get what i want as far as components and quality.
98. RE: Extreme PCs and
Insight Driver - 07/02/09
I live in California and have the benefit of being able to walk into a Frys consumer electronics superstore. If hombuilt is going away, it sure isn't apparent from looking at how crowded the two local Fry's stores are near me. I've been building my own now, for myself, and friends for about ten years. I will grant, I can't copy a Dell or HP in spec, INCLUDING THE COST OF THE OS, Anti Virus/firewall/anti-spam, and and some application, for a cheaper price. If I build just the box (motherboard, ram, HD, processor, DVD burner, etc.) I can come close. For me it's not in an effort to save money; it's get in the box, exactly what I want. It is also the satisfaction of having built it myself out of industry standard parts. I am just as likely to use an online distributer such as NewEgg as well. In any case, I am even more likely to build me own rather than by a major brand as time goes on.
99. Extreme PCs and Hot Rods
cyber.vision - 07/21/09
I have to agree that the market for value-priced DIY PCs is greatly diminished, if not dead. These days you can by a complete retail system for under $500, and probably even get a printer thrown in to boot. What's the incentive to put several hours of your own time into researching, buying, and assembling parts when a few minutes with an online or brick-and-mortar retailer will net you everything you need?
Having said that, I don't believe the custom built do-it-yourself market will every die. Why not? Just look at the hot rod industry. People still pour thousands of dollars and hours into turning basic transportation into super charged expressions of form and function. They don't do it to save money, quite the opposite in fact. The more they can spend on their creations the better they feel. I think DIY PCs are the Hot Rods of a new generation.
As for the Extreme PCs and the publications that laud them I think that's a lot like all the car magazines. I might see some super tricked out car in Hot Rod Monthly and know I could never afford to build it myself, but that doesn't mean I won't go out and try get some of the same parts they used - a carburetor here or a crank shaft there - on my own humble project. The same is true for Extreme PCs and DIYers. There's no way I'm going to build a $16,000 PC, but that cooling system looked pretty sweet so maybe I'll use that on my next box.
Anyhow, JMHO.
- Steve
100. ZDNet - Rest In Peace
WiredGuy - 08/13/09
ZDNet will certainly go out of business soon, or not so soon. Could be a year from now, or maybe a decade from now, but why wait to make the announcement?
Sorry to hear the news of ZDNet's demise, but it would be fitting to say our good-byes today, just as their columnists have been to various products, companies and whole industries for years now.
Hey, it was good while it lasted - I'll miss reading all your death notices of this company or that product segment - I hope you can all find work somewhere. Good luck.
101. Home-brews
bionicbub - 08/13/09
"Miserly" home-brews are the only way to go during the economic downturn. Why waste time buying off-the-shelf systems when you can build your own with motherboard/cpu/RAM combinations going for less than a third of the price? I've been through this same situation twice before, beginning in the mid-80s, but this is the worst recession we've had since the Great Depression, and I believe home-brews are going to grow, not disappear.
102. RE: Extreme PCs and appropriate technology
golhoeft - 08/13/09
Those that need them have and always will build them. I have $250 netbooks up to 8-processor
64 GBIT RAM dual GPU with terabyte HD monsters
that require their own airconditioning. It's a
question of appropriate technology for the
problem. Like a $200 vs a $20,000 oscilloscope -- each has its place.
102.1. exactly...what do civics and ferraris have in common?
bobavery - 08/13/09
they both get you down the road.
103. RE: Extreme PCs and
tom.bennett@... - 08/13/09
You wanna talk home brewed in hard times? I'm building a new Linux box for my home office from PCs acquired at local thrift stores. I've already snagged a Dell Dim T550 for 15 bucks and the hunt continues...for more PC133 RAM!
104. Jason Perlow no longer relevant
Narg - 08/13/09
So much for real reporting. If I wanted to hear Jason's personal issues, I'd go to his blog. Sad I have to be force fed it here in ZDNet.
105. RE: Extreme PCs and
ratstalker - 08/13/09
max'pc rox. Fry's Rules, and best buy (worst buy) sux. best buy doesn't even sell cpu's whats up with that? so much for that geek squad. More like dweeb squad. I'll stick with Fry's. Yeah, I still build econo-extreme rigs. I even play with fossils: six processor ALR Revolutions.
106. RE: Extreme PCs and
bb_apptix - 08/13/09
I have two PCs in my house; both were built by me.
I can choose exactly what I want at a price I want.
One is a Pentium Dual Core with 2GB-667 RAM and the other is a Core2Duo with 4GB-800 RAM and a 9600GT. On both of them, I got exactly what I wanted and paid less than what I would have gotten any other way. I can't buy what I want from a retailer.
Fully custom. I build them for other people, too.
107. Homebrews and the single guy
bobavery - 08/13/09
I would venture to guess that the people still doing homebrews are single guys with time and (possibly) money on their hands. Others, like me, have other things to spend time and money on, like family. I used to build my own systems up until about 12 years ago when 1) the costs of systems were comparable to OEM when you add in your labor time and 2) I started collecting wives and kids.
As for the reliability, I give you the example of a coworker that built a $5k homebrewed hotrod PC that's flakier than pie crust. Compare that to my 3 year old $350 refurb Celeron that's slow but is reliable and still serves my needs. As an IT professional, the last thing I want to deal with after a long day is fixing another computer when I get home.
Homebrews are all well and fine if you have the time and money to waste on them. But some of us have lifes. I'm sure doing your own brain surgery would be cheaper as well.
108. Lack of options and variety with Big-Name Brands...
Feldwebel Wolfenstool - 08/14/09
...with all the attention on notebooks for the last several years.
109. The POWWWAAAA and the PORN
DXMage - 08/14/09 (Edited: 08/19/09 @ 02:49)
ooooo man I can't wait for the latest spread =) with dual i7s with 16gb of 2000+ DDR3 for each socket and quad PCIe with 16 lanes to each "slot" with 295s in all four slots liquid cooled and OC'ed then hooked up to some hot dual 65" plasma screen action..... oooooo mama that would be hotter than any Hustler or Penthouse layout. =)
I can still dream of a day where i win the lotto 8)
110. There's still a market
Dr. John - 08/14/09
There's still a market for custom/extreme PC's, just as there's a market for customized anything else. There are those for whom off-the-shelf simply isn't enough, be it that they're not exclusive enough, or competent enough for their purposes.
A market I've been serving for some time now, that few people even consider, is the physically handicapped market. As Americans get older, those with infirmities become an ever increasing number. And, as medical science keeps more and more people alive into their school and adult years, that in the past would have perished at, or near, birth, their numbers increase. They have special needs that the cookie cutter machines don't/can't meet.
There's always that traditional market. The extreme gamers, the CAD gurus, the multimedia ghouls, and the exclusivity gang. And, there are those for whom the machine means the difference between making a good living, or just getting by.
Finally, just as Stutz, Duesenburg, Cadillac and Lincoln continued to sell cars during the depression, there are always those who can afford performance, luxury and/or exclusivity.
111. RE: Extreme PCs
trulanolsen@... - 08/21/09
I'd just like to add an observation. I love building PCs and always will, especially considering the fact that I can get a $5000 PC for only $3000 if I build it myself. I would assume the same goes for the truly extreme computers out there. Just a thought, but wouldn't cheaper systems be more popular during this time?
112. Extreme Homebrewed PC's will survive
riven67 - 08/21/09
but what might have truly died is the need to pass
on the ability to do it to the next generation. My
son and daughter are very much a part of the
"throw away" electronic generation. They have no
respect for the things they use nor are they much
interested in finding out what is under the hood
when and if they break down. They just start
asking family members to buy them new stuff when
that happens. Also the low cost of most PC's these
days make it less and less likely the next
generation will profit from fixing or designing
custom builds the way I did. The hobbyists out
there will continue to build just like me but I
don't think there will be a continued growth in
the number of people interested in building their
own anymore.
113. It's the software, stupid.
jeremychappell - 08/22/09
I know the proper quote is:
"It's the economy, stupid"
But in this case I don't think it is. The problem is the total
lack of a "killer app" for the "big rig". Time was you got a
new computer to run something that you couldn't run
before. Now, what is there you can't run on modest
hardware? Most of the applications are "on the net" and
the speed of your system is largely irrelevant.
So will the "big rig" survive? Yeah, for gamers (and if you're
a serious gamer, well the economics of what you're doing
are shot from the off - no serious debate about money will
ever make you look sane, but think about how much
people spend on beer, and where does that end up?). For a
lot of folks building the "killer PC" is at least as much of
the fun as the actual game! Here the PC is like a custom
car, and actually probably a lot cheaper. You can take your
"mad creation" to a lan-party and gain admiration and tips
from other builders, much like people do with custom cars.
So yeah, I think you're being a prude, if you've got the cash
then building a gaming PC is indulgence - but isn't that
what making money is for?
Long may the gamer continue to build, I'm not one of them
but I sometimes want parts for my system - and they
mean that not all parts are cr^ppy. Anyway some of their
creations are a hoot!
114. RE: Extreme PCs and
MoeFugger - 08/22/09
I have to agree with the do it yourselfers who posted.
Staged upgrading, they work great till it catches fire, blows up and falls off the desk as opposed to the brand name ones which seem to always be troublesome.
I have built my own for many years. My old 450MHZ is still running great. It is now my photo display in my living room displaying a couple thousand photos of overseas and my diving and neat stuff around town and family photos. I have an old DX2 chip hanging from a string over my desk just as a ughh... I don't know why but anyways, you can build them cheaper and get all parts from the MFG instead of the modified versions with a name brand. Generic drivers will work with these "generic" parts. Install as much memory as you can afford or need for now in ONE chip so you can ADD the other chip when you want to. Brand names like to fill the memory slots so you will have to REPLACE them when you want to upgrade memory.
There are many other reasons to build your own as well as it is a fun learning experience if you do your research.
115. Extreme Blog Posts RIP
UncleYitz - 08/23/09
Get with it Jason.
You really shouldn't post when you are so down.
The world economy is cyclical and always has been.
What goes down will eventually come back up and climb past the prior highs.
Custom PC's were never a mass-market attraction.
The manufacturers with razor thin margins are more likely to go under than the customizers.
PCmag was never an extreme publication.
It stopped printing because the advertising revenue moved online.
Although you porn analogy has some basis, you might have been more considerate of the sensibilities of many of your readers whom you offended.
Go take your anti-depressants and relax a bit.
Everything will be OK.