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1. Netsuite Victims enter
jvaccone@... - 01/11/08
Don't get hurt with Netsuite !
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/netsuitefraud/
2. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
joes@... - 01/11/08
You always here more from the entities who have something bad to say than something good to say. You can find the same nightmare stories within SAP enterpise customer base. The difference there is the target market often has the MILLIONS to apply the consulting needed to get on track and even then, it isn't always enough.
The people that complain here are mostly under-budgeted. Yes, salespeople tend to oversell. But I know NetSuite very well as a user for over 6 years. The pricing, possible increases, module features, etc - it's all in writing and if you do the dilligence, you shouldn't be surprised. Champagne dreams - beer budget. Most of the dissenters would be in the same boat with any complex ERP application they chose.
2.1. 1 in 1,000,000
bbeachbum - 01/11/08
You must work for this company. I have a complete 3 page NetSuite License Agreement and a statement of work that was provided to me and yes I did my due diligence but did NetSuite actually do their's. Not likely. What ever happened to trust? I trusted NetSuite. I trusted my sales representative. I didn't have Champagne dreams nor did I have a beer budget but if you believe in going with NetSuite your Champagne budget will eventually turn flat.
2.2. Ahem
dahowlett@... - 01/11/08
While you are correct to point out that companies frequently make mistakes, the cases I unearthed were not in that category. The fact so many people are dis-satisfied with Netsuite tells me there is something fundamentally wrong. Check the facts - that's what I did.
2.2.1. Dennis Was Duped; Will He Man Up?
saltydogs - 05/15/09 (Edited: 05/15/09 @ 02:05)
Ok, let's get to the truth of the matter shall we? DH's campaign against NetSuite began with a post in 2007 that told of scores of unhappy UK-based customers (none were named). He followed in 2008 with another NetSuite screed based largely on the case of Tara Rose, CEO of Nurses Unlimited (a two-person company), who told the tale of her "nightmare" experience implementing NetSuite and who, as a result, launched a class-action lawsuit blog that attracted no one but NetSuite competitors logging anonymous BS about how bad NetSuite is.
This individual is now suing another vendor for so-called "nightmare" issues and has rattled the NetSuite law suit threat even though this person has done everything required and MORE.
Where does this abuse of the legal system and the ZDNet blog community end?
Dennis, when will these ugly, old and inaccurate blog posts come down? Have you no shame, man? Time to man up!
2.3. Budget?
str1ker - 01/15/08
With Netsuite pricing going up 100% a year on average since they started, how can you even budget anything? Netsuite is the one having champagne dreams while we are all sipping beer.
2.3.1. Contract
dahowlett@... - 01/21/08
Check the terms of the contract - they should make it clear.
2.3.1.1. Contract Does Not Matter
str1ker - 01/28/08
They make incremental prices increases clear in the contract if that is what you negotiated for. The problem with Netsuite is the practice of spinning off features in the base package into expensive modules. Those things aren't covered in the contract.
2.3.1.2. Contract ? really
TomEast - 04/09/08
well, well, well
I had limited time of support like 2 month or so. I got the answer to my first question, which was in form of a question itself, after 2-3 weeks.
3. NetSuite support???
zsentient@... - 01/11/08
For a compnay that sells CRM software, their support is severely lacking and not enterprise quality.
3.1. 3rd party company support
Spats30 - 01/11/08
Most of the big ERP vendors have had so many former employees spin off their own 3rd party support outfits. Does anyone know of 3rd Party NetSuite support contract outfits?
3.1.1. 3rd party company support
map38 - 02/28/09
I know this is over a month late, a very good solutions provider is 360 Solutions (303)471-1109
4. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
jkon08 - 01/11/08
I was really surprised when I saw netsuite was raising big money through their IPO. We have a client who signed up through netsuite and it has been nothing but crap support from them. You email their support and wait for weeks to hear back if you do hear back at all and their support documents are out of date so they are of little help to a person wishing to help them selves.
5. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
victoria.bennett@... - 01/11/08
This just goes to show that you do not always get what you pay for. Smaller independant hosted CRM providers make more time for their customers. I use 3slive CRM in my business development role which is great because you get all their functionality from the start and. I would advise anyone looking for a better provider to look at www.3slive.com.
6. Former Netsuite users? We are one
bboyes@... - 01/11/08
We are a former Netsuite user. We leased for three years and chose not to renew when the price tripled (so much for the promised 'lock in' of our first lease' Our sales person made numerous promises most of which were never honored. He doesn't work at Netsuite anymore so they are off the hook I guess and can blame it all on him. We still suffered from some of the same bugs after three years and multiple new features upgrades. NS seems much more concerned about getting new customers and acclaim than taking care of current customers. Now we have a combination of QuickBooks and ShopSite which actually does some things better than NS at a fraction of the cost, and without the downside of not "owning" our own data.
6.1. Prices have Tripled?
str1ker - 01/15/08
I know about Doubled but have not heard of Tripled. I did ask NS sales reps about that and here is what he said - "As we add features to the system, isn't it reasonable that we should charge more?".
With this logic, at the rate Peachtree, Quickbooks, MYOB, heck even Windows have improved over the years they should be $600+ each if you used the Netsuite pricing model.
7. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
tech1@... - 01/11/08
I am not familiar with Netsuite, but it sounds like the source of Scott Adams (Dilbert Comic Strip)inspiration. If the situations described were not so tragic, they might be funny.
8. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
jvaccone@... - 01/11/08
TRUST ME!!!!
MAYBE if you we on an unlimited timeframe and had an Unlimited amount of Money, Netsuite MIGHT work for you.. BUT the implimentation is a JOKE, it is Dragged OUT, the intial costs are Way Over the Sales people promised.
And then the Sales manager will call you and say --"Since you spent all this time already with Netuite, maybe the cost was more, we didnt hit the timeframe BUT, what are you other options? Start over from scratch."
Stop from getting ripped off.
We NEVER used Any of our Netsuite License, and Never got out of the primilinary stages and PAID over 30K. this does not include the complete licence costs..
TRUST ME -- LOOK ELSE WHERE - BOYCOTT NETSUITE
8.1. It would help...
dahowlett@... - 01/11/08
Can you provide more detail. In any situation where the vendor is being pilloried, it ensures that people have a clear pciture as to why things went wrong.
9. NetSuite Pro's and Con's
adam1100 - 01/11/08
The worst part about NS is the fact that they own "your" data and they know it. This fact became apparent when they threatened to cut our service off while we still had eight months left as we were negotiating a new agreement. They used that as a tactic to get us to sign a six figure multi year deal.
We decided that this was too much power for anyone to have over my company and decided to move off of NS after five years. We hired a highly referenced and experienced contractor to extract our data from NS at the cost of over $30K USD. It took his firm almost a year to complete because NS would change the way they allow you to access "your" data and in the end they could not a get a full extraction because in the CEO's of the data extraction company own words left on my voice mail, which I still have, they were "deliberately" restricting access to our data, he thought as a form of punishment for threatening to leave.
Hard to prove, but I would not put it past them.
On the other side there I am not aware of anything else like it on the market. They are bunch of a-holes, their software is buggy, slow, hard to implement, freaking expensive, upgrades are a nightmare and they have you tied over a barrel. But once it is set up it works OK, not anything close to what they promise but good enough run a SMB on.
The hard and soft costs of leaving NS were more than the three year renewal we were negotiating with them and our current system does not have the same features that we relied on in NS. Knowing what I know now and if NS was not run by a pack of a-holes I would just have bitten the bullet and stayed with them.
9.1. Thanks and a request
dahowlett@... - 01/11/08
Excellent detail. Could you send me a copy of the terms of service which applied at the time please? email dahowlett [at] gmail [dot] com. I'd be interested in seeing how this works as I have always been under the assumption that your data is....your data. Otherwsie how can your company accounts be capable of audit for example?
9.1.1. NetSuite Service Issues
adam1100 - 01/15/08
I sent you some additional information to the email address listed in the reply post. Could you let me know if you have received?
Thanks,'
A_
9.2. Netsuite Owns Your Data
str1ker - 01/15/08
This is downright scary. I always knew that signing up with Netsuite means - "VENDOR LOCK IN" as with other ERP offerings but I did not know about the underhanded tactics.
What I know is they have attorneys that aren't shy to collect the remainder of the contract even if you move out of Netsuite because it isn't working for you. (All the more reason why you should not sign a multi year deal with them until it is really working.)
I'm not even a year old. I'm moving out.
10. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
michaelwilliams - 01/11/08
I incurred a very similar NetSuite nightmare. After losing much money, my reputation and nearly my job we finally bit the bullet and abandoned the NetSuite product.
11. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
Ron1000 - 01/11/08
We bought into Netsuite after a lot of what we thought was very careful evaluation and consideration, only to discover that key functionality that we thought was there (but was very difficult to thoroughly test in their 'evaluation' version), wasn't. We believe that we were seriously misled over what Netsuite was actually capable of doing and ultimately paid a high price in hidden fees, ridiculous and unjustified price increases, lost business opportunities, and the high cost and stress of eventually dumping Netsuite and switching to an alternate accounting solution.
We are a Canadian company and of course support for things like multi-currency, Canadian taxes, global ecommerce, etc. were all very important considerations for us. All of these things 'appeared' to work during our testing. But after the 'big buy in' we very quickly discovered that these functions were at best incomplete, and at worse - buggy and totally unusable. It took us almost the entire first year to come up with work a rounds just so that we could use the software. Technical support was responsive - but their answer was almost always the same. "Yes we are aware of the problem - it is on our to-do list, but gee... unless more people complain about it, we are not going to do anything about."
Then of course was their pricing strategy. As others have already mentioned, it was a strategy of hook 'em first with false promises and a great offer, set the hook tight by getting them totally reliant on your solution with all of their data on your server (in a format that is pretty much proprietary and cannot be exported to other accounting systems), and then reel 'em in and feast upon them using nickel and dime pricing schemes and ridiculous price increases for mysterious functions that you once got for free.
In the end our choice of using Netsuite nearly bankrupted us.
For god's sake, if you are a non-US based company looking at Netsuite as an accounting or CRM solution, look elsewhere. Hell, a pen and ledger would be a better solution!
12. Your Not Alone
bbeachbum - 01/11/08
Just because you live in Canada doesn't mean that you should be subject to NetSuite's unethical behavior. I have joined with www.netsuiteconsumerfraud.com group.
13. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
ERP & CRM Veteran - 01/12/08
I am new to this thread and article. I am happy to acknowledge I have worked in the ERP space for 8 years and represent a competitive product to NetSuite (think Redmond). I am not here to discuss NetSuite's business practices but instead to set the record straight for companies looking to purchase enterprise software in general. And yes, I am the quarterback in sales opportunities with prospective customers and have sold nearly 100 CRM and ERP systems throughout my career. Be careful of sales reps that will tell you only good news. Instead, seek out a sales rep that is open and more honest, perhaps too honest and acting conservative, in their approach. Also beware of software companies offering steep discounts (30% +). Focus on vendors that are in it to show you how you can see real value from their solution. Don't buy on price alone. It should be the 4th or 5th priority on the criteria list. Vendor reputation, longevity, deep industry expertise / functionality and enterprise vision / strategic roadmap should be your highest criterion from which to evaluate vendors. Vendors should also provide a 5 year Total Cost of Ownership with real costs documented. The only reason a software company will gladly offer large discounts is if there are underdocumented fees you will pay starting year two. Never accept low ball pricing. There is a saying in the software industry that most prospective customers miss when they buy on price, "You can pay me now or pay me later".
14. ahem...
software.reality@... - 01/12/08
you seem to understand the industry having ready many of your other blogs... you say you checked the facts, does that include contacting this company that everyone seems to dogpile?
14.1. Yes and no
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
I've had discussions with NetSuite in the past about their lack of ability to serve customer needs at senior level. I spoke with Tom Foydel who is on the ground with this stuff. The fact this was coming up again in the space of 3 months didn't warrant my going back to the company.
The reality is I've held back on telling this new story for a while because I wanted to be certain that what I was hearing was factually based material and not just the grumpiness of disaffected users.
There is a pattern here and I believe I know where it stems. I have yet to show that but once I have more evidence then I can say more.
15. What is most troubling about this situation
terry flores - 01/13/08
... is hearing that Netsuite is willing to hold customers' data hostage during financial negotiations. We have some applications which are outsourced, but our CEO (who is a lawyer by training) has not allowed the CFO to outsource any of the business financial functions except payroll to ADP. One of the reasons he gives for this decision is he doesn't trust any of the "new" companies with the keys to his company, and the ability to shut us down either by whim or incompetence (his words). One of our stipulations with ADP and the other outsourcers is that they can provide us with flat-file extracts of ALL our data in 48 hours.
If your outsourcer cannot or will not provide you with this kind of failsafe, then you are truly placing the life of your company in THEIR hands. There aren't many (actually any) companies out there who I trust that much.
15.1. Get Ready to Move Out!
str1ker - 01/15/08
Not only that. If you have a long term price lock with Netsuite, make sure you read your contract. Some customers who don't have annual renewals will still have to pay out the remainder of their contracts even if the system is not working for them.
Some have annually renewing contracts with a long term price lock.
The problem with these contracts is anytime you deviate from them (add or subtract users, services), you go back to full price.
When I signed up, I did not want to get silver support. They forced me to get it as it is required for the first year. I was told I could cancel it after the first year. On my second year, I wanted to cancel it. If I do so, my 55% disappear with it. They never told me that? Nor was it on paper.
Buyer Beware!!!!!!!
16. How horrid!
John Musbach - 01/13/08
I'm glad I've learned of the behind the scenes truth of Netsuite operations before thinking of investing with them in possible future business ventures. Their offerings do seem very attractive but with all the reports of lack of support and bait and hook strategies it just seems like a company to steer clear of. Thanks for the warning!
- John Musbach
16.1. In fairness
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
A lot of people are satisfied with NetSuite so please don't take this as wholly indicative of the company. You might well have a better experience, depending on what you need. There seem to be ongoing problems with CRM that are not being resolved and that is an issue.
There also seems to be a lack of transparency on pricing structures and how the service is sold. That again needs resolution. If the problems persist then customers have a right to ask why. The fact this post is drawing so much attention indicates to me there are issues that need attention but as always, there will be different points of view.
As a matter of interest, SAP and Oracle have both been through these growing pains. In the late 1990s, I was awash with similar stories that were arguably more serious. Some argued that defective software drove them to bankruptcy.
16.1.1. to be fair?
TomEast - 04/09/08
Please do not re-write the history. Oracle was a solid product. Netsuite is far from a so so products.
17. From an NS user on the NS User Group
joes@... - 01/14/08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My 2 cents or several of them.
In the last 10 years I have run a number major UK .coms for major UK businesses and advised a 100 or so others, working through systems problems. During that time I have tried building systems from scratch, integrating multiple systems and using complete systems such as NetSuite.
Honestly, it is never easy,
- implementations are always harder than expected,
- systems never work as the sales team promise,
- support never understand each individual customer,
- the grass always looks greener on the otherside
We launched with NS in September 07, 2 months late, and predictably enough we found and are still finding issues. There is a reasonable gap between the sales pitch or what we believed we were going to get and what we got. At the worst point, our business was in a very bad position, we almost went legal and my job was under threat. But most of it got sorted.
Currently, we still find things that don't work and the integration with our 3rd party warehouse is still not relieable. BUT NS are working hard to resolve these issues, find work arounds and improve my business.
Now, I would say we are happy with NS. There are days when we have big issues NS, days we hate it and there are days when we love it. I would say that the first 6 months are going to be the worse (as they are with any system) and everyday gets better.
My biggest complaint is that NS is geared to be a B2B system and is not easily re-geared to a B2C ecommerce system. And so everything takes time to work around to what we want.
However, you have to ask was there a better alternative?
- I have never yet seen a system implementation go smoothly. The very nature of an ecommerce business is that it is hard to do it properly.
- I spent 6 months researching alternatives and opted to go with NS. And I examined every alternative I could find from mail order specialist systems such as MOM to integrating multiple systems. NS looked to be the best solution from the sales pitches. I am sure that I would have probably had the same issues with any of my alternatives.
- There is no other single system that would allow us to set up a pan-european business, in the short time we have.
- My alternative would have been to integrate a warehouse system, accounting system, customer service system, email system etc. I have done it before and it is a nightmare,
- For the first time in years, I am able to run a business without a heavy technical overhead.
- When you get used to using NS strengths there are incredible benefits. (I have team an entire team who have never worked in a .com and have no technical skills)
- Our speed to change and adapt our site and service is now faster than anything that I have ever had.
- My training overhead and requirements are lower that I have ever had. Which gives me a staff flexibility that is fantastic.
In Summary
We are now happy, we are looking forward to being very happy and with my next pay check I intend to become a share holder.
In the end I believe that we have the best system we could have. That what ever failings NS have we will learn to live with them and concentrate on using NS strengths rather than worrying about its weaknesses.
Stick with NS and learn to use it, I am sure you will be satisfied in the end.
Hope that helps
17.1. Thanks but...
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
I hear what you are saying and I thank you for your candor but I have to wonder after 30+ years of vendors building business applications why buyers continue to tolerate the disconnect between what the salesperson says and what gets delivered.
The founders of this company come from Oracle. They can't argue this is 'new' as they have implemented a model that is reflective of what happened at Oracle. In other words, they are seasoned veterans.
In the meantime you seem to have a remarkable amount of patience which I assume is based on your past history. I'm not sure I'd be so tolerant.
18. actually it's a cool program
start@... - 01/14/08
i've been using Netsuite program for 7 years now. the program offers many features and new users have to be patient. once they get an understanding of the concept it's very useful and very productive.
18.1. I don't get this?
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
Why should I be patient about something I've paid/am paying for? Would you do the same for a car, your house or any of the other things you use and that are essential in your life?
I'd really like to know where this acceptance of 'less than' comes from?
18.1.1. RE: I don't get this?
JustL00kin - 12/09/08
with due respect, cars, house or other necessity that you bought/paid for where built-in in general preference of what people need...Example, house, you will need to select the best model, architecture that will suit your taste. NetSuite has a built in general functionality that can be used on, but if you prefer some cosmetics that will suit your business needs, then that where customization comes out. Implementing a software is always a give and take process, built the initial structure first and then you will see the good fruits of what you're hard work....
19. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
brad@... - 01/14/08
I have been using Netsuite since May 2007. I have to say it is the best pgm we have ever used hands down. This is not to say there have not been issues or longings for features not found but show me a piece of software that does everything for everybody.
They come out with additional features and fixes every 8 weeks or so. Get enought people to request a change and it usually happens. Several time i have personally emailed with the company found, Evan Goldberg. Show me another software company's CEO who speaks to their customers via email. I am no big customer either...only 20 users so i have no inside track to get his ear.
We have used SAP, Great Plains, AccPac (SBT), Quickbooks and Mail Order Manager in the past 10 years and NS outshines them all. It did 80% of what we needed out of the box.
My only complaint and i should have watched it are the subsequent years license fees. Higher than expected.
Other than that i like the company and the product.
20. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
chriscorcoran - 01/14/08
You need to do more research!
Respectfully, I have been a Netsuite user since 2000 and, while it is true their have been ups and downs, I can tell you the ups outweigh the downs 100 to 1 or more.
When I called the company back in 2000 to inquire about the product the rep was unable to answer the questions but happily passed the phone to someone that could. It happened to be Evan Goldberg, the founder of the company.
At the time, the Netsuite product was in its infancy. Our company has 8 at&t retail locations in two states and we also run a limousine service.
Evan and I discussed at length what was needed for multi location accounting. I signed up believing him when he told me to use the product as is and they would have multi location soon. In November, a lead programmer worked with me for over a month to get our data into the new multi location format.
I can tell you that every technical person at Netsuite cares deeply about their product and customers. I would also venture to guess that if you survey their customer database 99 out of 100 would stay with the product.
The Netsuite product has given me a life. I can run my business from anywhere in the world.
I urge you to reach out to other users before accepting the word of a select few that probably did not plan their implementation properly to begin with.
Candidly, this is poor reporting.
Chris Corcoran
20.1. Netsuite cares deeply?
alexeig - 03/25/08
Glad to hear that "every technical person at Netsuite cares deeply about their product and customers". That would be the first of any technology company. How many technical people does NS have? One?
Now, the following guess, "I would also venture to guess that if you survey their customer database 99 out of 100 would stay with the product", does not seem to be the "educated" one. Customer churning rate at NS far exceeds 1%. I don't know what it is, as NS isn't too forthcoming - but from some *educated* guesses, it's in the teens.
21. You need to do more research.
chriscorcoran - 01/14/08
You need to do more research!
Respectfully, I have been a Netsuite user since 2000 and, while it is true their have been ups and downs, I can tell you the ups outweigh the downs 100 to 1 or more.
When I called the company back in 2000 to inquire about the product the rep was unable to answer the questions but happily passed the phone to someone that could. It happened to be Evan Goldberg, the founder of the company.
At the time, the Netsuite product was in its infancy. Our company has 8 at&t retail locations in two states and we also run a limousine service.
Evan and I discussed at length what was needed for multi location accounting. I signed up believing him when he told me to use the product as is and they would have multi location soon. In November, a lead programmer worked with me for over a month to get our data into the new multi location format.
I can tell you that every technical person at Netsuite cares deeply about their product and customers. I would also venture to guess that if you survey their customer database 99 out of 100 would stay with the product.
The Netsuite product has given me a life. I can run my business from anywhere in the world.
I urge you to reach out to other users before accepting the word of a select few that probably did not plan their implementation properly to begin with.
Candidly, this is poor reporting.
Chris Corcoran
21.1. Ahem 2
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
Chris - if you want to poke me on facts as experienced by others then fine but please don't tell me it's poor reporting when I'm getting email after email telling me a class action suit is coming and where I get to see the documentary evidence in support. Similarly, when a company offers a discount like $40K on a $140K deal - that's a screw up in anyone's language.
You also miss the pint where I specifically spoke to Tina Rose questioning what she did and how she went about it. I suggest you read what was said, along with Tom Foydel's remarks.
21.1.1. A bit defensive?
gscott1234 - 01/15/08
"Similarly, when a company offers a discount like $40K on a $140K deal - that's a screw up in anyone's language."
Your opinion seems awfully biased. $40k discount could be an attempt to settle with a customer rather than drag out a matter that could cost both sides more. Happens all the time. Does not necessarily mean that company offering the discount "screwed up". How could any business veteran come to that conclusion so adamently as you have? This is not the worst reporting I've ever seen, but, it's not too good either.
Horror stories abound in almost any major software - for some reason though - you seem to pick on NetSuite. Bigger companies tend not to waste time suing over $100k. SMB customers are more likely to gripe - come with territory, not necessarily the software.
21.1.1.1. Disagree
dahowlett@... - 01/15/08
$40K is a 28% return to the customer and you're trying to tell me that's not significant? Part of the arrangement was to compensate for someone coming in to sort out a mess NetSuite could not or would not resolve. Rather than throw brickbats, how about asking me whether I have the source material against which to test the CUSTOMER'S assertions because if you think I would go into the public arena without testing my story than you really don't know much about how I work.
Your comparison between what this company did and what larger ones would do is totally irrelevant. We're not talking about a large company or a large contract but a small business that spent a relatively large amount for a system that did not deliver. What part of that is not clear from the report?
21.1.1.1.1. Maybe the Customer is not worth it
joes@... - 01/18/08
Did you ever think that maybe NS wanted to cut its losses on an uncooperative and unreasonable customer? Perhaps they did not see a way out other than to get out of the picture and give the mess and customer to someone else? Perhaps they thought they would lose more than $40k if they kept on trying to appease a resisting customer?
21.1.1.1.1.1. Netsuite Should Refund
str1ker - 01/18/08
If NS wanted to cut its losses, it would have been faster to issue a full refund to the customer. They have failed to provide the required customizations so the customer deserves nothing less than a full refund.
If you make a $140,000 commitment, you try your best to make it work.
The popularity of this article is already costing NS some business. They should try their best to keep their existing customers rather than keep recruiting new ones and shafting them in the end.
21.2. More Research?
str1ker - 01/15/08
Chris,
I guarantee you Dennis did a lot of research. This article would have come out more than 2 months ago if he wasn't careful.
Not all of us have Evan Goldberg's ear. What he tells you is gospel. What the sales reps tells us is trash! If it is not on paper, it is not worth saying.
I would suggest to anybody considering Netsuite to keep all their emails and have everything important on paper.
22. Netsuite Shell Shock
billy@... - 01/14/08
Netsuite can seem expensive at first. But we have been with Netsuite since 2002 and it quite literally saved our company. We had multiple systems that were time consuming to manage and a true nightmare when the server crashed. ProSoap went from a small manufacturing company that was being dedicated to by our servers, to a thriving small company that could efficiently manage what matters.
We had a bit of shell shock when we first signed with Netsuite, but when we actually put the numbers to the paper on all the upgrades and time spent on the File Pro and Great Plains software, it was a no brainer. Netsuite turned our company into a virtual company overnight. We could operate from anywhere in the world, without having to be a network guru with VPN voodoo access. Now that we signed with Contactual (voip SaaS phone system integrated 100% with netsuite), prosoap truly is a virtual company that can concentrate on sales and customer service more than ever.
Netsuite is the perfect solution for a small company to get all the capabilities (IF NOT MORE) than the mid-size companies.
I challenge anyone to put the pencil to paper and find a better all around solution for a small to mid-size business. Anyone that lets the netsuite process frustrate them, clearly is not looking at the whole picture. Salesforce.com (to name one) didn't even try to argue with me when i told the rep how much netsuite has done for us.
If your goal is to continue managing servers, please feel free to avoid netsuite.
22.1. I'm glad
dahowlett@... - 01/14/08
You're obviously a happy customer and that's great. I have no argument. That's not the point of this piece. NS is failing customers and is continuing to do so across multiple dimensions.
It's worth checking Tom Foydel's remarks and seeing the sub-text IMO.
22.2. Costs of Netsuite
str1ker - 01/15/08
There are a lot of ways to justify why going with Netsuite is a good financial decision. When I signed up with Netsuite, I was also attracted to the idea of not having to manage servers and I'm a network admin so I know how much work that entails and the costs of a dedicated IT staff.
Following the same formula, if you were to ask a small business owner what he thinks about Peachtree or Quickbooks, what it does compared to excel and paper, they'll tell you it is worth $10,000.00. But are they going to buy either one of them for that price? Noooooooo.....
These softwares are less than $200 for a reason. The economies of scale keeps them down. Neither company has seen their prices go up 100% a year because they could.
22.3. NS ?
TomEast - 04/09/08
I don't argue that NS idea is great. They have thought a lot about this but for many areas such as e-commerce they did not even bother to see what's in the market.
part of their design is so naive. Having many non-sense features and yet do not even listen what customers want.
my 2 cents.
23. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
Ron1000 - 01/14/08
Wow. All of a sudden there is a rash of glowing posts about how great Netsuite is after all of the bad ones. Sure seems suspicious to me.
As for Netsuite working wonderfully for other folks. That may be so, but for our needs it fell far short. We did do our homework and spent a great deal of time evaluating the solution as best we could using the demo version. And it is not like we were green under the gills either. Myself and all of my partners all have considerable experience with business operation and setting up and using software for managing a business.
However it was not until we got much deeper into the program during implementation that we began to discover just how full of holes Netsuite really was. And not just a few holes either, but dozens and dozens of functions that just plain did not work. And tech support did not argue the point either. They admitted there were a lot of functions that either did not work correctly or were very buggy. That was not the problem. The problem was that they would not do anything about it!
One good example is GST reporting. As a Canadian company we are required to submit a GST report to the government once each quarter. In the two years that we used Netsuite this key report never worked correctly. Instead we had to manually generate a GST report each quarter. Netsuite was well aware of the problems with this important function, but up until we finally left, they did nothing about it.
After leaving Netsuite and switching to QuickBooks for our accounting processes it was simply a joy to click on one button and get a printed GST report that we could submit to the government.
It was two years of hell of us, but a few months after we left Netsuite I got this email message and I just had to laugh. Seems that they forgot to turn off issue notification for our account. This was just one of many, many problems we ran into. Only took them 27 months to finally get to this one...
Subject: Update Notification for Issue xxxxx
Issue Number: xxxxx
Type: Problem
Severity: S3 - Important
Status: Pending Development Assignment
SLT Age: 27 Months
Release Target: Not targeted
Abstract: Multi-Location Inventory: Submit XML Document> an inventoryItem with cost, quantityOnHand, and a foreign currency vendorRef will not perform a currency exchange calculation for totalvalue (User Interface through browser does)
Details: No Details
Changes: Status changed from Open - Under Investigation to Pending Development Assignment
24. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
k0man - 01/14/08
I'm a current customer and a happy one. I had a few years prior experience with enterprise salesforce without which I would have had a much harder time with netsuite as it is not nearly as mature (even now) or as well documented. As part of my negotiations with netsuite I completed admin training 1 year before we finally signed up, so I felt we went in with our eyes open and did not feel deceived by the sales process at all. Having said that I think it's very clear that when you look at the product data sheet http://www.netsuite.com/portal/resource/detailchart.shtml it is not very informative, for example it lists many items as "standard" with Netsuite, however it would be more accurate if they were listed as "basic" as the reality is that for the fully functioning product you will need to buy additional unlisted modules. I think they need to change that and be more open with the product details. Another area they should open up is the usergroup, even now I still go through and stay up to date with salesforce as they have an open door. Netsuite should do the same imho.
24.1. + it does lots more
k0man - 01/15/08
To add to my prior post, the reason we switched from salesforce is that it does lots more for us than what sf was doing...Having a webshop and also running our accounts at close to the same cost as sf has been a real win.
24.2. Netsuite User Group
str1ker - 01/15/08
I agree about the Netsuite UG. If they opened it up, we wouldn't so many posts outside the UG about Netsuite complaints.
We talk about how Netsuite sales people being deceptive but doesn't sales training come from the top? They are selling it like snake oil and sometime it will be preceived as such.
24.2.1. No deception for me,
k0man - 01/16/08
Just to be clear. I did not experience any deception through the Netsuite sales process. It was very clear and straightforward for me. I am not some "pro ns poster" planted here to push a POV, I'm an end user and a happy one. I can pick fault with ns as I could with any other company I deal with. They have been a benefit to my company, Thank you Netsuite!
25. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
kckn4fun - 01/15/08
"In the world of on-demand, anything less than working software soon gets exposed."
Dude-- what about learn.com? They have the flimsiest, most insecure LMS on the planet, and yet they still limp on.
26. RE: Netsuit playing in to the equation.e nightmares: part deux
jvaccone@... - 01/15/08
The Time factor isn't playing in to the equation.
Maybe an exponential growth rate caused growing pains. People that could of signed 2 years ago may have been well taken care of.
Our situation was not positive at all. We found Very slow implimentation, no followup from our project team , Inexperienced people running our job. All of this equally virtually zero progress. I have great pride in my company and the systems we use..
I can't get our company jammed into a solution like Netsuite.
I saw the Value in product through the Sales cycle but was very disappointed in the implementation stages.
26.1. New Implimentation Team
jvaccone@... - 04/01/08
Netsuite has assigned me another implimentation team and I am 100% up and running! I have no regrets picking Network for the custome solution they provided. I must of been too impatient in the beginning. Thanks Netsuite
27. DISCOUNTS AND IPO
bbeachbum - 01/15/08
Has anyone ever wondered why NetSuite gives such large discounts. I have read so many statements where people are saying that NetSuite owns your data. Think about it. NetSuite quotes you a really great price. However on your statement they list the retail price and then they subtract your discount. Of course the end result is that really great price. Unfortunately, each year that price goes up 5% or more and then when the contract expires that price then goes to that retail price. By then you have so much information in the system that it is near impossible to retrieve. Of course you can pay a professional to extract the information out of NetSuite but not without a hefty price tag. Of course that is Scenario #1.
Now lets try Scenario #2. NetSuite needs to make themselves look really good before they go IPO. So what does a company like NetSuite do. Well, they jack the price up so high that it makes the company look as if they are doing really well financially. The question is: Is NetSuite showing the retail price or the discounted price to all the stockholders?
Maybe the SEC should really look into this. I talked with one individual that received a 75% discount. NetSuite must be having a going-out-of-business sale. That's usually where one will see a 75% discount.
27.1. Many factors
dahowlett@... - 01/15/08
There is no question that NetSuite offers inducements to customers to bring them on board. Similarly, there is plenty of evidence that they play fast and loose at renewal time.
The problem for many SMBs is they are not used to negotiating contracts but instead settle for what they think is reasonable. That's all part of 'caveat emptor' and while not exactly what one might regard as 'fair' in other circumstances is normal practice on software sales.
Where NetSuite is playing unfair is in the way it strong arms customers into paying over. What it does is say that yes, it's your data but access to the data is at our choice. To my mind that's an unfair term but if customers sign to that then it is very hard to prove they didn't do anything other than go in with their eyes open.
As always = check the contract, get a legal opinion, ensure you know EXACTLY what you are and are not paying for.
PS - I may make this into a separate post.
28. Using Netsuite is Like Renting Space in a Mall
str1ker - 01/16/08
It is expensive, you have to build it to suit, you can't take your improvements with you when you leave and it is slow on weekdays.
Difference is, malls don't give 50%, 60% or 75% discounts to lure you in and then jack up the prices 100% per year.
If shopping malls operated like Netsuite, they will soon be charging for the pipes that bring water to your store or the ductwork that brings you air.
29. New Implimentation !
jvaccone@... - 04/01/08
Netsuite has assigned me another implimentation team and I am 100% up and running! I have no regrets picking Network for the custome solution they provided. I must of been too impatient in the beginning. Thanks Netsuite
31. Quotations - beware
CEOofSoftwareCompany - 04/12/08
We recently had a NS quote. It included $120,000 for
services for the implementation. I could not believe that it
was going to take so much resource to implement this
solution, particularly as they told us that our workload
would be approx 2 1/2 times what they would do.
After much back and forth with the PS people, they
estimated that they would be providing 25 days of services
to us. I was outraged - $5,000 per day of services!!!
I asked "are there partners" - "could we do it ourselves" -
they answered both questions NO - only Netsuite has the
experience to implement the consolidation pieces.
Unbelievable - I thought we had moved beyond vendors
making their packages so hard to implement that they
screw you on the consultancy charges.
One final note, as a contrast, we have had salesforce.com
for 5 years, have 120 people on it and have spent ZERO on
professional services.
NS = RIP OFF
32. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
hnolte - 09/15/08
While I have MANY complaints regarding the system and company practices, my most recent complaint is that we were "auto-renewed" for another year at a higher rate without permission. We were IN NEGOTIATIONS with our rep to remove modules to try to make the system for affordable for our needs. The rep was slow to return our calls and emails (if he returned them at all) and seemed to be stalling. I now know why, one of their sales tactics is to stall negotiations and then wait until you are "auto-renewed" and therefore trapped. This is one of the most blatant unfair business practices I have ever been subjected to in my five years as a business owner. When we complained we were forwarded to an A/R specialist who told us we could discontinue using Netsuite but we would still be required to pay for the year. Unbelievable!
33. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
map38 - 02/28/09
I have over 60 NetSuite customers and about 3 of my customers are like you. Barely making it as a business month to month and you were late paying your renewal. NetSuite gave you some leeway and you didn't pay your bill. Either you are complete liar and or moron because you have not paid any attention or were too cheap to pay someone who actually knows something about NetSuite to install it. Your accounting (you) did not pay the bill. Finally the consultant took you for $30K to migrate over. That is the person you should be complaining about. You have access to your data at anytime within NetSuite. That's right - your data, not NetSuites
34. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
SO what now - 04/23/09
I'm very sympathetic and ready to listen and help if it's appropriate. SO for what it's worth I'm personally inviting you to check out our service at salesorder dot com. Ask for Nick....
35. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
organicmom - 05/13/09 (Edited: 05/15/09 @ 01:52)
I had some major issues and it looks like the Netsuite company will be trying to resolve them. I will keep readers informed as to my progress.
36. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
organicmom - 07/23/09 (Edited: 07/28/09 @ 11:54)
I have escalated my issues with Netsuite Senior Management and they are now addressing some of our major concerns. I will keep all informed
37. RE: Netsuite nightmares: part deux
wawadewa - 09/04/09
If a flexible tool as NeSuite or SAP get so much bad press, I think it's because they depend on customers to tell them how they want the system to run.
As a FD or MD, you have the choice between paying external auditors to map you internal processes and enhance those procedures BEFORE you go and put your job on the line by trusting what a 20 year old sales rep, who just cares about their commissions, tells you what a system can do.
External auditors are expensive though and might not reflect the company's budget.
If you do not take an implementation seriously, chances are, you will end up with a tool which either does not fit your needs or that you end up paying for functioanlity you do not use.
Is NetSuite or SAP really that bad or do customers just need help in mapping their requirements? Only time will tell.
Dom
itscontrol.com
Providing management tools and services
38. So Glad I did not sign
The 'G-Man.' - 09/15/09
but then I saw through the bull at the vendor Interviews>