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1. Once again, hijacking some elses work
croberts - 12/03/08
Apple poured millions to develop the iPod hardware and the underlying software. It **at the insistance of the music industry** incorporated DRM.
And now what? The songbird people think they are entitled to access all those iPods?
And don't start about the "people" and choice. Everyone who bought an iPod up to now has known exactly what they were getting into; what the capabilities were (burn to CD) and what the restrictions were (play on 5 computers).
There are hundreds of different MP3 players out there... focus on those. Oh I forgot, they want to work with Apple's cool hardware after Apple has done all the hard work.
Pathetic. I'm no fan of software patents and the like, but this type of stuff amounts to intellectual rape.
1.1. Focus on the other mp3 players.....done...
storm14k - 12/03/08
If I'm not mistaken most other mp3 players are simple to sync with these players. The Ipod Iphone quest is probably driven by users that want this functionality on Linux. If Mozilla can figure it out then so be it. Apple could squash the entire thing by simple releasing a Linux version of Itunes. It should not be terribly difficult as they work in a *nix environment anyway.
As for the players whats special about Songbird? I have tried the thing a few times and it really isn't better than Amarok or even Exaile. It just has a flashy UI.
1.2. Are you kidding
compsrt - 12/03/08
I can write software to run on a Mac, why can't I write software that accesses an iPod and it's features? They have spent billions on developing OS X and the hardware it runs on. They don't mind that. What's the difference?
1.2.1. Difference?
croberts - 12/03/08
The difference is that its their right to say yes or no.
And if you don't respect their right to say no, then we have no common ground to debate from.
1.2.1.1. Right to do WHAT?!?
readwryt@... - 12/04/08
Um, open source software...Let me see, independent software developers shouldn't have a right to develop software that integrates with patented technologies without the patent holder's permission...how would that fly. Oh wait, nevermind...we already discussed this in the 90's when Apple and everyone sued Microsoft over inclusion of their browser, I remember now. No clever hacks allowed...wasn't that what we all decided? I'm having trouble remembering how that all turned out, did we make Netscape stop producing software that ran in Windows?
I suppose the next thing will be that I will have to ask Apple if I can run Linux instead of OS X...
1.3. Don't all proprietary outfits claim the same thing?
DanaBlankenhorn - 12/03/08
Yet they all accept open source competition and the
possibility a device owner may want to control that
device with someone else's software...all but Apple.
1.3.1. You mean...
SquishyParts - 12/03/08
like the Xbox or Sony Play Station? Really, stop playing
ignorant.
1.3.1.1. Huh
compsrt - 12/03/08
Not sure what you mean but I think lots of folks write software for the xBox, not just MS. Not sure about PlayStation, have they sold any lately.
1.3.1.1.1. "We deserve to mess up your lawn"!
LBiege - 12/03/08
So says Songbird to Apple. I'm no fan of Steve Jobs, but I think he should give these guys a finger and maybe a law suit along the way.
1.3.1.1.1.1. Seriously?
johndoe1a - 12/12/08
A lawsuit for creating a software product that plays back
media files. I am sorry but the chances of that happening are
slim to none.
1.3.1.2. You don't get out much, do you?
Dr. John - 12/04/08
People have been using both for other purposes for some time now.
1.4. As much as I support FLOSS
gmureddu@... - 12/04/08
I also strongly agree with you... It is Apple's prerrogative to protect their stuff, however they see fit. Just as it is our prerrogative NOT to buy their stuff. Apple has always been the king of Lock-in, much more so than Microsoft has ever been (as much as I may despise both entities as companies). Apple plays to be FLOSS friendly sucking up on the work made for free by thousands other developers (basing their whole Darwin project [the foundatin of OS X] on FreeBSD, for example), and contributing just a little and keeping thier stuff proprietary and locked away...
That is why I have never even considered buying and iPod, not matter how "cool" they are, and settled for a portable media player that would play the formats I care about (.ogg and .mp3), new models even play some other free formats (.flac, .spx) and have a much wider asortment of formats support (Windows Media formats, video and audio; MPEG video and audio [including MPEG-4 AAC and h264], Ogg Vorbis and FLAC; and some even Theora). I couldn't care less if Apple brings out the next iPod model which adds a number of useless features, I won't buy an iPod simply for its locked-in design, no matter if I can use it with other programs, or if I can rip music files off it with other programs, the fact that iTunes and the hardware were designed the way they were, simply puts me off. And instead of incurring in law vialoations, I'll buy something esle. Hell, even Sony Walkmans are a better alternative...
1.4.1. once again...
readwryt@... - 12/04/08
United States vs. Microsoft...May 18, 1998 Microsoft claimed that people could just not use Windows, that they could just run some other OS.
This isn't about protecting technology or patents, this is about keeping Record Labels happy with DRM so that the iStore can remain open for business...
1.5. I doubt users knew what they were getting into
butler360 - 12/04/08
Having worked in retail electronics I can tell you about 99% of people had no idea what they were getting into. That's why they'd come back into the store so often complaining that "it's broken" for any number of reasons that have everything to do with Apple's software and nothing to do with the hardware.
1.6. You are SERIOUSLY confused!
Dr. John - 12/04/08
You're confusing intellectual property rights with property rights. Two entirely different concepts.
Hardware is not software, meaning it's property, not intellectual property. Hardware is yours once you've plucked down the necessary form of payment. You own it. Every molecule of it's being. If you choose to use it for target practice, you can. Because, you own it. If you decide to make a nose ring out of it, you can. Because, you own it. If you get the wild urge to plug it into a model rocket and launch it into low earth orbit, you can. Because, you own it. Apple can sit and spin if they don't like it, because they sold you the rights to the property. It's yours, not theirs. You choose, not them.
You can run whatever software you want on it. You can plug whatever you want into it. You can put whatever content you desire on it. It's yours, not theirs.
As for your statement, "Everyone who bought an iPod up to now has known exactly what they were getting into...", you're whacked! I'll guarantee you that the vast majority had no idea what they were getting into. How could they? It keeps changing! Install iTunes, get Quicktime. Why? Apple thinks you need it. Update iTunes, get Bonjour. Why? Apple thinks you need it. Update iTunes, get Safari. Why? Apple thinks you need it. Etc....
"Pathetic. I'm no fan of software patents and the like, but this type of stuff amounts to intellectual rape."
Hardware! H-A-R-D-W-A-R-E. It's a simple concept.
1.6.1. True, but an iPod won't work without software.
914four - 12/05/08
The thing that's embedded in the device and shows you menus and song titles and stuff? That's software, and you license it, even if the aluminium box is yours to keep forever. If you don't think there's precedence, try buying a second hand EMC disk array and see what they say when you want to turn it on.
Confusion runs rampant it seems...
1.7. Freeware
The Management consultant - 12/09/08
Itunes is comming off the boil with the problems with Itunes 8.Perhaps you should ask the question of Apple why has Apple not created Itunes for Unix as it is an expanding market set to take 25 % or more of the market? After all Itunes is a freeware platform Apple uses to raise revenue.
1.8. Blah Blah
Alan Smithie - 12/22/08
What total wind, did apple invent:
1) Mobile phone ?
No
2) The computer ?
No
3) The mobile music player ?
No
4) Digitally compressed audio ?
No
5) Apples ?
No
A famous man once said, who also worked with apples long before Steve Jobs:
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants"
2. Lots of players out there...
Stuka - 12/03/08
What makes this one any better? There are 20 or so free music players for MacOS X.
With that said, Apple has ever right to protect themselves. They control the hardware and software to guarantee correct functionality. People that use songbird and have an issue, better expect to have their warrantee voided.
2.1. "to guarantee correct functionality"
fr0thy2 - 12/03/08
You sound like you've been reading too much Micro-speak.
2.2. Warrantee???
dmhunter@... - 12/04/08
So if I plug my iPod into a PC that does not have the blessing of Apple my warantee is voided?
Come back after you graduate from grade school.
2.3. Warranty Voided?
johndoe1a - 12/12/08
They should not expect any support about using Songbird
for Apple tech support but this would not void the warranty
on their computer.
3. Better wait for v. 2 or 3
andycher - 12/03/08
the songbird site was an incomprehensible mess when viewed in Firefox w/ Vista
readable in IE but very uninformative
not holding my breath
A
3.1. The site is not the key
DanaBlankenhorn - 12/03/08
The software is the key. But I had no problems using
the site with either Firefox or Chrome. Maybe it was
just slammed today because everyone is going there
from this story. I hope so...
4. Long fight
Boot_Agnostic - 12/04/08
what can you do with a device aftermarket wise. Can you mod your Playstation or Xbox, can you run Realplayer on an iPod, can you emulate your software purchase on a system OS not designed for it, if someone makes a product or service to do so, open sourced or not. IF you don't charge for it, do you fly under the radar, if you do charge, are you a competitor or a 3rd party vendor or both in the eyes of the original maker and the laws of the lands?
With Apple's piles of cash (with Microsoft's piles of cash), should there be worry from competitors providing applications and mods not birthed from them? Depends on if users are biting and the companies can't buy up the resource or create a competing product with easier access. And whether a competing product can advertise itself enough to gain mass appeal or fizzle out as that thing we tried using in 2008 but didn't catch on.
5. RE: Should Apple worry about Songbird 1.0
cymru999 - 12/04/08
Every manufacturer tries to lock their device in some way and as a consequence the "community" will continue to see lock in made impossible!
Printer manufacturers told us that third party ink would void warranties - who cared with what users saved on cost they could afford to replace printers regularly.
The fact is that many of the people who buy apple products know little if anything about alternatives - they dont read the small print (who ever does) and dont find out the limitations sometimes until they read articles like this one.
The problem is that the runaway success of "sexy" products can stifle developments of alternative products - we all know that the IPOD could probably be produced for $100 and the iPhone for not much more. How many people buying these products only find out later that as well as paying much more than they are worth they also cannot access things that they expect to - online java games for example - blocked on the iPhone - who would expect that?
Apple are so devious about their advertising that they have even been forced to change some of the adverts - and it has to blatently wrong before companies are told to do that.
I neither hate nor love apple any more than I hate/love windows or Linux - this is about groups getting together to force the likes of apple to put their customers interests at least as high as profitability. I know they are not obliged to care which is why they have to be forced to care!
6. Songbird 1.0 Froze Up XP after about 30 minutes
PMC-CON - 12/04/08
Drove CPU to 100% ... was able to stop it with task manager fortunately, and machine was fine.
Deleted Songbird. Looks pretty much like Media Player by default, apparently is another dog-slow Java app from what was installed.
6.1. I'd guess you're in the minority there
butler360 - 12/04/08
It's been stable for me (and most people) since early betas.
And as far as I can tell it's no Java application. It's built on Mozilla. So if you hate Firefox and Thunderbird and all that, then I guess you wouldn't like Songbird.
7. Users will be Songbird's biggest battle
butler360 - 12/04/08
Apple users have a tendency to not be savvy enough (or simply too lazy or trusting of fatherly Apple) to try something other than what Apple supplies. Not all, obviously, but Apple has been the dominant seller of MP3 players for a long time and during that time a lot of players that are better (have more features, longer battery, more formats supported, better sound quality, etc.) have emerged without having really any impact on Apple's sales.
The fact that iTunes holds on so strongly is amazing to me because iTunes is such a piece of junk software. It installs about 3 programs or more on your computer, adds at least one startup entry and about 3 services, and takes up rediculous amounts of memory. Plus, everything is automated for you to the point of driving you crazy. Want your own filenaming/directory scheme for your MP3s? Don't let iTunes touch it! Then there's the fact that you purchase inferior quality music that's got DRM all over it! Why would anyone do that? There's AmazonMP3, Rhapsody, eMusic, etc. and they are all high-quality DRM-free MP3s!
If you don't have an iPod, you can use anything you want for synching. I have an iAudio M3 and I use musikCube to sync. MusikCube takes about 4MG of memory, let's you update your library at will, intetgrates with Last.FM, etc. No startup entries, no services, no "Bonjour", QuickTime (with all it's security holes), etc.
8. RE: Should Apple worry about Songbird 1.0
thammr - 12/04/08
We have one iPod in our family. Although the hardware is good quality, having to use iTunes is such pain in the a** that I have told my family members not to ever buy an iPod again.
If I could find a usable piece of software for putting MP3s on iPods, I would withdraw my objection.
Apple should welcome SongBird. It would make iPods far more desirable if there more choice of software to use with them.
9. RE: Should Apple worry about Songbird 1.0
troutsoup - 12/04/08
already have some computers switched over. i was waiting for the gapless support to work into it before putting it on my main computer. i think they got it into 1.0 need to double check.
itunes is bloated sloooooow poop that is near parasitic with all the junk it installs on my computer. i'll be glad when i can uninstall it.
10. No need for Apple to worry
trentreviso - 12/06/08
I can't get Songbird to install on Ubuntu 8.04 or 8.10. Checking the Songbird site, lots of other people are having problems with it, too.
Maybe someday Songbird will compete with iTunes, but it's gonna be a little while.
11. Let's say I don't have to worry about Apple
virarfast - 12/08/08
I have basically replaced my iTunes and Firefox with Songbird. It is stable, and helps me enjoy my music and my web in one place. This is a great piece of software... and I really hope people take to this. To that effect I have reviewed/recommended it on my blog. So if you are a non songbird user - and want to know more about it before jumping the gun - read it here: http://grimescene.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/songbird-a-nifty-new-browser/
Well done "The Pioneers of the Inevitable!"
12. RE: Should Apple worry about Songbird 1.0
johndoe1a - 12/12/08
Yes, 25% increase of less than one percent of total desktop
market is really coming to a boil. If you think *nix is going to
take 25% of the total computer market well that is not going
to happen any time soon.
Almost every netbook I have seen which is where the pre-
installed *nix growth is going to come from has had XP
slapped up on it rather quickly.
13. No they should not worry.
johndoe1a - 12/12/08 (Edited: 12/12/08 @ 08:45)
I mean really. Do you think Apple is going to loose sleep over
Songbird?
No, not really.
14. Mozilla: Just 20%?
Fred Fredrickson - 12/15/08
Presumably you are referring to the Mozilla family of browsers, of which Firefox is the poster child. Its browser-share is around 44% at w3schools:
Of course there are sites with greater or lesser figures, the 20% figure likely comes from Netcraft:
But if you want to know why such statistics are garbage, there's a good article here:
So unless you have some verifiable facts on browser usage, or at the very least are prepared to publish the source of your data, please don't publish any.